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180798 Responseshttp://www.racerelationsproject.org/2010/02/lgbt-class-question-five/LGBT+Class+-+Question+Five2010-02-17+02%3A17%3A39Sam+Richards to LGBT Class – Question Five
Certainly I don’t particularly disagree on any particular point made during the lecture, but I can definitely see people that despite what one might hear in a school setting. Generally what I think it comes down to is an individual’s religious beliefs. As we went over in class, a number of different religions specifically identify homosexuality as a sin. So in that case I can certainly understand why someone committed to their faith would be hesitant to support gay marriage. Of course this raises a problem of those same people picking and choosing. If all sins are supposed to be equal, then they would also have to endeavor to ban things like drunkenness in all places, gambling, and a number of other rather commonplace “activities.”
I agree that religious beliefs are the one motivator behind disapproving of gay marriage but that does not explain the other people who are not religious and still do not approve. I think it is more of a cultural thing and if you have never been subjected to something, then you are much less likely to understand and accept it. I would bet that most people in the class on Tuesday were less accepting of gays before the class until Sam educated us on a few facts. Of course there will always be people who won’t change their minds despite educated arguments that disprove them, but that is their prerogative. It is our duty to enlighten people on the facts, not make their decisions for them even if they are poor ones.
I completely agree with this point that Sam Richards made. If people are going to justify their homophobia with religious reasons, claiming it is a "sin," than all other sins such as drunkenness and gambling should be weighed equally. However, I don't think this is the case. I think many people are homophobic and use religion as a crutch for their hatred. If two people, ANY two people, want to get married, I don't understand where other people get off judging their decision. To call it anything less than a marriage is unfair, who says that the straight way or the same-sex way is what is THE way. I don't understand why there has to be just one RIGHT way.
In my honest opinion, people fear what they do not know, and what they do not understand. If I am not mistaken, it was said in class too that a lot of hatred stems from fear, so when most people hate something, deep down, they are actually scared. Homosexuality is an issue that has only become big in recent history, and since people feel this is still a new issue and that people may not know about it, they fear the idea of two people of the same sex being attracted to one another, and wanting to spend their lives together. From a religious perspective, love and marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and homosexuality is deemed as a sin in the Bible. For Christians growing up, since this is what they are taught, heterosexuality is all they know. So, when they encounter something that is radically different from that view, it is frightening and naturally, the defensive reaction is to have a negative view and hate the idea. Also, some of these people fear that if gay marriage is legalized, it downplays the meaning of marriage through their eyes. In turn, they feel threatened by the idea of gay marriage.
However, I do feel that in the coming years, the presence of this opinion will lessen. You can never completely negate this opinion entirely, since religion is not going anywhere anytime soon and Christians/Catholics will still believe this idea, but I am finding that a lot of the negative stigma towards gay marriage is from the older generation of these people. The idea of LGBT back in my parents’ time and older barely existed. Nowadays, it is common to come across people who are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, trans, etc. And honestly, in my opinion, this is not a huge issue to me anymore. In my eyes, this has become so prevalent in our society, and since my generation is becoming more accepting of this issue, that trend is just going to continue in years, which will help decrease the negative feeling towards LGBT issues.
Lastly, I believe that once you have had some encounter with the LGBT community, over time, it becomes harder to not be understanding and open to their beliefs. Growing up, I lived in an upper-middle class town that was predominately white Christian/Catholic. I had no idea what LGBT was until high school, when I transferred school districts. When I was a freshman, I met a bi-sexual girl who ended up in my circle of friends. At first, the idea of homosexuality did intimidate me because I had no clue what that meant and I could not conceptualize it. However, after I learned more about it and seeing that she was no different than myself, it did not faze me as much and I realize I had become accepting of the LGBT community.
I think that once people get over their fear of LGBT issues, the issues surrounding this particular community will decrease, understanding and acceptance will rise, and steps towards equality for people of all sexual orientations will be made.
Okay so, you are acknowledging the fact that homosexuality is a sin in religion, but aren't all sins supposed to be "forgiven?" If a person sins, they beg for forgiveness from God, and are supposed to be granted that forgiveness. Which, might I add, is why I think religion is pretty ridiculous. Religious people have all of these beliefs, and believe soooo strongly in them, yet if they screw up, they just confess their sins to the Lord and are forgiven. I mean, we're all human, and at least the Bible is making up for that I suppose, BUT if this is true, then homosexuality is just as equally bad of a sin as disobeying one of the Ten Commandments, and should have an equal chance by Mr. God Himself, to be "forgiven," unless God of course picks and chooses, too, as many upon many of His followers.
I'll give God the benefit of the doubt though and say he's going about this "forgiveness" thing pretty equally. So um, what the hell is the problem? It confuses me. If a sin can be forgiven, what is the issue of WHAT sin a person is committing? Is it because gay, lesbian, bisexual, and trans people don't acknowledge their sexual preferences as sins? Or is it because being homosexual is like, a reoccurring sin? I mean seriously I'm confused.
I just think if all sins shall be forgiven, then how can religious people who are completely against homosexuality, homosexuals and, or supporters of homosexuality because of religious beliefs, even present that argument at all? It bothers me—I can see, more so, if an individual chooses to not support homosexuality because he is really uncomfortable with it for whatever reason, or does not understand it. I am uncomfortable wearing really tight spandex with tops that do not cover my butt when I am wearing them and so everyone behind me could probably see my entire ass practically as I walk; And I’m really uncomfortable when I see other people wearing these tight spandex pants but hey, whatever I mean, they have a right to and I can’t dictate that, but I have a right to to be completely against tight spandex pants.
So someone who is against homosexuality has a RIGHT to not support homosexuality, even though he should understand that homosexuals have a RIGHT to choose who they want to love, as much as people have a right to choose what they want to wear. Regardless, however, the argument there is more acceptable, in my opinion, than the argument of religious people who are against homosexuality because it is a sin….even though sins are forgiven. Maybe I am completely wrong! I feel like out of the several times a year I'm dragged to church I did get that much from it, that sins may be forgiven.
I can understand why Gay Marriage is still a taboo in the whole world. United States his actually more open towards the Gay marriage than the vast amount of the country in the world. The number reason why Gay Marriage is still a taboo in the world is because of the religious beliefs of people. The major religions all over the world strongly oppose same sex encounters, speak less of gay marriage. They believe that a "marriage" should be between a male and a female, and nothing more. I have nothing against Gays and Lesbians even though my religion opposes it. I have both gay and lesbian friends and I do not judge them based on their sexual orientation. However, the majority of the society still view the marriage as a taboo. I hope this changes towards the future, but we have to change our self first.
I agree with Sam that this has been the best class so far this semester. First, I'll let you know that I am now friends with a few homosexual males. My sister goes to a musical theater school in Boston and over ninety percent of the males enrolled in her school are gay. When I visit her from time to time, it is definitely a different experience for me. None of my close friends at home or at school are gay (well none of them are open about it if they are). So engaging in regular activities such as going to a movie or a bar with her friends in Boston at first was hard for me, then I realized how I was the one making the situation uneasy. Just because they are attracted to guys doesn't mean they want every guy they see. I also realized they come off as more friendly and understanding, which I don't see as a bad thing at all. Enough with me, back to the lecture. One part of the lecture that really stuck out at me was that being homosexual is not a choice. I liked when Sam asked if we believed that people really thought “hey, I want to become part of a hated group and be scared of people beating me up all the time.” This makes complete sense to me. Why would someone want to become part of a despised group? I never thought of the struggle that people go through hiding their homosexuality. When he told us the story of his friend finding out she was really a guy got me thinking. How common is this occurrence? I feel like this could happen to anyone. It’s not their fault that this happens. How can you explain this happening in the animal kingdom as well? Do you think that monkeys decide to do this or it is in their biological make-up? If it’s found all across nature, why isn’t it more accepted in our society? I learned more in this lecture than any other this semester. My favorite part was the cartoon saying how marriage is only for people who had sex once or want money from the other partner. This is very true. The idea of marriage has changed dramatically over the years and I feel like if someone loves each other they should be given the same rights as anybody else. Gay marriages should be able to adopt children because they are capable of giving orphan children a loving and caring family. They can support children just as well as straight couples and I think it is horrible when people believe their kids are unsafe because they are around a homosexual. These people are not murders! They only love a different way!
GoatsOnABoat Reply: February 19th, 2010 at 2:35 am
I completely agree with you. And I am glad you brought up the point that maybe you were the only one being uneasy about the trips to Baltimore. I feel like that is a big issue with some people. Being a part of the LGBT community has really allowed me to see this first hand. I came out to my parents a little over a year ago, and shortly after I started telling friends. I thought for sure that nothing would change with most of them, but I was incredibly wrong. Some of my best friends became completely different people when I was hanging out with my girlfriend around them. The strange thing was that I wasn't even flaunting my relationship. We were all hanging out like friends do. I feel like when she found out about me, she just put up this barrier. She was never the same around me after that. And that is how it seems to be with so many people today. I think that more exposure beginning at a younger age would decrease this occurrence.
I'm so excited that Sam's discussion about how homosexuality isn't a choice touched you. I have always felt a natural attraction to females rather than males. I can't even remember the first time it happened. I feel like it has always been there. I have gone through periods in my life where I tried to force those feelings to the back of my mind because I thought it was a phase or I could will myself into being straight. It just doesn't work that way though. I could never feel comfortable in my own skin until I told my parents, and even then it wasn't completely comforting. I knew that admitting my sexual orientation would create a lifelong battle. Even today, I will have tough days where I just wish I could be straight so that I wouldn't have to deal with all this bullshit people throw at me everyday. It would be a life where I was unhappy but at least I wouldn't be seen as some homosexual reject. In the end though, I have the most incredible girlfriend. I have been with her for over a year and couldn't imagine myself with anyone else. And if I give in to people's bullshit, it is just allowing them the pleasure of oppressing my true self, and I can't allow that to happen– to me or anyone else. I plan on helping the America achieve marital rights across all the states. It is my lifetime goal. I will commit the rest of my life to that goal because no one should be able to take away the natural birth right to marry who you love.
speedygal108 Reply: February 19th, 2010 at 10:27 am
(read "first of all" comment first)
Now in response to why would someone be part of a dispised group, I think that people choosing to belong to those groups is more common than you think. For example, while it may not be on such an extreme level here in America, think about people defending their CHOICE of religion. There are people who are dying for what they have chosen to believe. As a Christain here on campus I definatly do not need to defend my life everyday but on Wednesday, which was Ash Wednesday (a holy day for many Christain groups on which ashes are put on the foreheads of believers as the holy season of Lent leading up to Easter starts off) I was walking around with black ash in a cross formation on my forehead. As I walked around that day I go many double takes, stares, questions and some harsh words. It was my choice though to get the ashes and even my choice to believe in the traditions and faith behind the ashes. I know for a fact people treat me different if I say im a Christain.
speedygal108 Reply: February 19th, 2010 at 10:29 am
(all in response to cram…read "first of all" first, then "now in response" then "while this is")
While this is a different kind of reaction that some one saying they are gay would produce, it still run along the same line. My parents dont really get my new choice in beliefs, my friends think it's strange…isn't that what a gay person may be experiencing too. And hey maybe im nieve, and dont understand the extent of negative treatment of gay people, but I think it should be noted that its not jsut them that are choosing a difficult path in life. In another case that I bet everyone can relate to, I am pretty sure that many people would not say they like the Willard Preacher or the man outside the HUB, but they are using their freedom to believe in what they want and are living with the reprocussions of people not liking them for it.
I think it all comes down to respect. Lets respect everyone's personal choices, but at the same time lets respect the traditions and sacraments of long ago established religions and keep them the way they were meant.
speedygal108 Reply: February 19th, 2010 at 10:25 am
First of all I think I should point out that I don't support gay marriage. I think that a union of some sort is ok but a marriage is something that was orginated in the church and so the use of the word in cereomonies that occur in vegas or in a court room, seems wrong to me. I am not a person to discriminate or call people unequal, i just feel that marriage is a holy sacrament and should be kept that way. Also, you said "If someone loves each other they should be given the same rights as anybody else". OK great. But see question number like 5 or something about Sex vs Love. I think there is some issues with the whole Sex vs Love thing and its role in marriage.
I completely agree with the points this person made about gay marriage. As a Catholic I do not support gay marriage and all of the reasons for why I feel this way originate from my religion. Marriage is defined in the bible as being between a man and a woman. Therefore placing the title of “marriage” on two gay people is inaccurate and going against the bible. Homosexuality is considered a sin in the bible regardless of whether it is a “choice” or not. Sam made an interesting point in the lecture when he brought up the idea that we are all psychically attracted to the same sex. With this being said many would argue that homosexuality is not a choice. Regardless of if this is true or not, people do not have to act on their feelings. For instance the actions of someone who is born mentally ill are not justified just because of their mental illness. If they commit a crime it is still considered a crime and is not “OK” because they felt that way. I believe the same applies to someone who is homosexual. If they believe they are born a homosexual that does not give them the right to act on their feelings. If we are going to accept the actions of someone who believes they are born a homosexual then we should also accept the actions of someone who is born mentally ill. For instance if someone who is born mentally ill kills someone because that is what they felt they needed to do (just like someone who is born a homosexual feels that they need to act on their feelings and get with someone of the same sex) then we should accept both of these and not be hypercritical towards what we choose to accept. With this being said you probably think that I am against homosexual rights. I am not denying that homosexuality does not exist but I am arguing that just because it may exist DOES NOT mean it is right to act on your feelings. I think that people who openly admit that they are gay should have rights because I think that everyone should be treated equally. I do not think that someone who practices being gay should have rights because it is a sin. Thanks to Sam’s lecture he made this point very clear.
I find it interesting how people try to defend homosexuality by saying things such as, “ our culture is ever-changing, adapting and evolving.” How do your words really compare to those written in the bible? Where in the bible does it acknowledge that when times change and the world evolves that the words in the bible should no longer apply? Just because more people accept homosexuality as being “OK” does not make it right.
I went right out in another class of mine and said I was against gay marriage. There is a gay kid in my class who did not take too kindly to that and then another girl told me I was ignorant. Now this is where I have a huge problem with this issue. Because I don't believe in gay marriage, I'm ignorant? Gay people are aloud to look at you like you have 2 heads when you say your against some of their rights but god forbid you look at them like they have two heads when they are walking down the street in pink leather pants with an obviously made up lisp in their speaking….stereotype? It sure is, but it's prevalent. Civil Unions are allowed in most states. These unions provide many of the same benefits that a marriage does…lets not forget people that many marriage benefits and tax breaks from the government are meant to alleviate the burdens of raising children. So then whats the solution, we have to give gay people children now? While studies may show that a child will not turn gay because of having two gay parents, its still possible that they will be more inclined to experiment…and lets not forget about the "making fun of" these adopted kids in school. It's like a fairytale world to believe that they wont be made fun of. As for the religion thing, I was raised Catholic. (I'm not a practicing Catholic) THE STATE has taken over the institution of marriage and then put its liberal ideals into it in an attempt to make available to everybody. Marriage is a sacred religious thing. Here's what should happen to make it fair. The U.S. stops signing off on marriage licenses and they start signing off on civil unions—these would apply to everybody. Vegas needs to stop calling it marriage and so do LGBT. If you want to get married, which by the way is reserved for a man and a woman according to the Bible which is where this comes from ANYWAY, then go to a church and get married. I’m not some sort of monster elitist straight white male…I believe in equal rights, I just don’t believe that everyone should get everything they want. Why does it HAVE to be called marriage for LGBT? I just have a hard time grasping this. I understand its just a word so why cant LGBT understand that what they are really fighting for is the rights and benefits not the word. And guess what, LGBT have rights. They aren’t thrown in jail for being gay. They can be gay in the military now. They can get civil unions in many states..which clearly shows that every state in the future will allow it.
I like this writers view point on the matter. I also liked Sam's lesson on how we can have a heterosexual couple walk in front of us and we think nothing of it. We can have two girls walk in front of us and we sort of look at it differently. But when we have two guys holding hands walking in front of us everyone is shocked. The lesson of this was that many people are not "flaunting" that they are gay as much as other people's perspective and view is out of norms. The same goes for marriage. I think that we look at marriage as a binding contract between a man and women and not a women and a women or man and a man. We need to stop looking at what is normal and what is not normal. Because what is normal to you is different then what is normal to other people. I believe that gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. We are all people and segregating one group based off of sexuality is wrong.
In class, Sam showed us the religious views of Christianity and Islam but he did not share the views of the Jewish religion. As a Jew, I have always wondered what Judaism thinks about homosexuality.
According to the bible, it states
In Leviticus 18:22, it is written: "And you shall not cohabit with a male as one cohabits with a woman; it is an abomination."
As I was Reform Conservative Jew (a left winged conservative you may say) growing up, recently I researched as to what the Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism viewed homosexuality. I also researched Orthodox, very religious Jews to see all sides.
To begin, Orthodox Jews who are the most religious believe that the Torah forbids homosexual acts not homosexual people. Sexuality as a whole is instinctive and natural. So this brings the question into why does G-d say that heterosexual love is holy and homosexual love is an abomination? It is because heterosexuals can procreate. Judaism and its G-d teach that G-d loves all people. Additionally, the Torah does not condemn homosexual love and urges. According to Rabbi Boteach, "Judaism does not prohibit or in any way look down upon homosexual love. In the eyes of Judaism the love between two men or two women can be as natural as the love between a man and a woman. What it does prohibit is homosexual intercourse."
Now to half of my belief Conservative Judaism. The Committee of Jewish Laws and Standards (CJLS) of the Rabbinical Assembly is the central halakhic authority for the Conservative movement. For a while they did not allow the ordination of openly gay men or women. Then on December 6, 2006, the CJLS completed its deliberation regarding the halakhic status of gay men and lesbians. Regardless of whether a Conservative rabbi and congregation choose to hire homosexual rabbis or perform same-sex commitment ceremonies, they are expected to show respect and sensitivity to all people. All Jews, no matter what their sexual orientation, are welcome into Conservative congregations because G-d teaches us to love all people. So basically it comes down to the congregation’s choice on same sex union ceremonies or the hiring of homosexual Rabbis.
Reform, the complete other side of the spectrum. As a progressive movement, the Reform movement tries to adapt Judaism to today's world. According to many reform Jews, “Many progressive Jews also believe that calling homosexuality "unnatural" is incorrect. They site numerous studies, which have found that homosexuality occurs in nature among every species of mammal and among most other species of animals. Sexually aroused animals will try to mate with the nearest partner. It has been concluded, therefore, that there is an innate drive toward the release of sexual tension, and this release can be accomplished through either homosexual or heterosexual relations”.
Homosexuals are completely accepted in Reform congregations and will hire them as Rabbis as well. Many in the movement even believe that gay and lesbian Jews should be able to be committed as partners in a ceremony.
In conclusion, there is a wide spectrum when it comes to the Jewish religion on beliefs on homosexuality. One thing is the same, the Jewish religion believes that homosexual love is completely acceptable because G-d loves all people. Through my research I completely side with the Reform movement. I am totally supportive of gays getting married and loving whoever they want because in the end love is all that matters.
Why I believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin. A few verses stating so are as follows. Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Also in Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them. " In Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Finally the one Sam used in class 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation. But, just because someone is a homosexual does not mean that we cannot love him (or her) or pray for him (her). Thanks to the help of Sam in class we all know that homosexuality is a sin and like any other sin. It needs to be dealt with, like all other sins, the only way possible. It needs to be laid at the cross, repented of, and never done again. As a Christian, I should pray for the salvation of the homosexual the same as I do for any other person in sin. The homosexual is still made in the image of God — even though he is in grave sin. Therefore, I and you both should show him the same dignity as anyone else with whom we come in contact. However, this does not mean that I am supposed to approve of their sin. I don't compromise witnessing for a socially-acceptable opinion that is void of godliness.
Are you serious right now? I am not trying to be mean but…Wow. This is just ridiculous. You speak of the bible as if it were written by God himself. As if he, after writing it, signed it with his own hand and gave it personally to you. As if he, after giving it to you, said this is the guide to life, follow my every word. Come on now, we both know none of that is true. A human wrote the bible! A human, literally, sat down and wrote this book and called it the bible. Sacred or not it is a book written way back in the day by a human. You are going to follow the every word of a man's ideas of god and how each person should live? A man you never even met…really?
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." You speak of this as if it is a fact that can’t be denied. Calling something (and ANYTHING) an abomination is always an opinion…and that’s the fact. The same goes for Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act…” Detestable act… that is an opinion! You are following the opinions a man who decided one day to write them down in a book. Do you get what I am saying of should I keep going?
I grew up learning that "God is love" and that "Love does not hate". God, supposedly, hates gays though. How can a God who is supposed to be love, hate? Can you make since of that, because I can’t? I think it is a bit ridiculous that Christians are encouraged to love but at the same time they follow a God who hates gays…for loving. I could never, in my life, look down upon a man or a women for loving another man or women, no matter what anyone else tells me and I cannot even imagine why anyone else would. What happens if a child loves their homosexual father? Should the child go to hell for loving a homo…even though it is their father? Where does your bible draw the line?
I have honestly told myself, a long time ago, that if I am really going to go to hell for loving someone, then I am going to go the with the biggest smile and the fullest heart. I don’t want to go to a heaven that rejects people for loving another person to their fullest…what kind of place it that anyway?
P.S. – You say you do not like homosexuality because it is a sin, as if you do not sin. I have one word, hypocrisy.
P.P.S. – I am sorry if I have offended you in anyway. That is not my goal. I tend to be a bit passionate about the subject of gay marriage and I may have come off a little aggressive.
God is supposed to be a source of love for all, but with the quotes that you have highlighted from the Bible, he is made out to be a discriminating power. Nothing at all about that seems righteous. What the LGBT community does behind closed doors isn’t what this issue is about anymore. Hypothetically, how would it feel if your partner or your soul-mate passed away, and their young child had to go to an orphanage because the process of adoption would be far too lengthy and difficult. Or what if they were in the hospital after suffering a horrible injury and YOU weren’t even allowed to visit them, because you weren’t considered spouse or family. This is about legal rights and the rights to being with someone you love, and the practical benefits that come along with it.
I agree with cxmaddox here. I’m not trying to generalize your opinion or anything, because really that’s what all of this is and I’m just expressing my own. In Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another . . .” the act of homosexuality is deemed as unnatural. But that’s just saying that the desire to love and to participate in romantic acts, whether it be just kissing or having sex, as an unnatural part of life. Everyone in the world has these feelings to some degree, so wouldn’t that make them completely natural? Just because these feelings are directed towards members of the same sex doesn’t make them any different. If you want to follow the words of the Bible and believe that it’s ideas and its pathways are the only ways to live by, then by all means go for it. Just stop and think about how applicable its words, which were written down thousands and thousands of years ago, are in the modern world of today. Things are different and culture is ever-changing, adapting, and evolving, so how can the Bible still hold true through all of its teachings without rubbing people the wrong way?
“But, just because someone is a homosexual does not mean that we cannot love him (or her) or pray for him (her).” Well, pardon the saying, but thank god for that, because with countless people passing judgement without understanding, then the LGBT community definitely needs the rest of our support and love.
I can accept this. But next time you need to put a P.S. at the end and mention not that you "should" pray for homosexuals but that you "do" pray for them AND for all other sinners. And then, of course, actually pray for all of those sinners. This is the way you get out of the trap of having to deal with people yelling at you for any hypocrisy winding its way through your life. I'm not saying it's there (hypocrisy) because I don't know you. But it's just a consideration. Remember, this is why Gary is so cool and enjoyable.
Lets quote another historical document while we are at it, shall we? The United States Constitution, First Amendment, establishment clause: “Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion….”, or more commonly known as “separation of church and state”. When it comes down to it, it really does not (or at least it shouldn’t) matter what the Bible says when lawmakers are doing their jobs correctly. While I totally understand that religious institutions have their own laws, it is unconstitutional for our country to be run on the same rulings. The big guy in the sky can send sinners to hell all day long, but the government cannot judge them, and if “all men are created equal” they cannot fail to grant them civil and political rights due to their sexual orientation. Politicians need to put their views aside because they have neither place in government nor politics.
Have we also forgotten about Civil Rights in this country? Not giving any American citizen equal rights because of their gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, etc. is discrimination, plain and simple. Not giving homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals is against the law! I do not understand how we are getting away with this; can someone help me out here?
I agree with what you are saying completely. If you are a catholic it is against your religion to be a homosexual. It is just not what Gods intentions were. Men are suppose to be with females and that is the way it is suppose to be. I am against gay marriage because i am sick of this proud to be gay thing that has been going around. If you are gay then you are gay keep it to yourself you do not need to be prancing around trying to prove something. Just do this knowing that you have committed a sin and and you are going against what you believe in.
So I can’t figure out if you’re playing devil’s advocate or not, but I will play along. The problem with this entire issue is that one assumes that the bible is the word of God himself. My understanding is that as a Christian one believes that the bible was written by men. Granted they had divine guidance, but still men none the less. Because of this, many of the issues addressed in the bible are contextual to the time period. As such, you can never really apply the passages in the bible literally when dealing with modern day issues. There are reasons to condemn homosexuality in the time period when the bible was written. It cuts back on population growth, which would have been pretty important given the number of battles fought in the Old Testament. Imagine looking at two men with each other the same way a man and a woman are with each other, knowing nothing about biology. Of course you would think that the act was unnatural and condemned by God, you have never seen anything like it. Given new understanding of nature, specific examples of immorality have to be changed. For example, the bible tells the story of Sodom being destroyed by God due to it’s sexual immorality. Now it is basically indisputable that the reason in the bible for its destruction was that the people of the town held no regard for traditional sex. Of course you would think it was wrong. There aren’t any forms of birth control other than family planning (Catholic Roulette as my grandmother calls it). Having sex with many people means many illegitimate children. We have ways to prevent it these days, so our perception of what is acceptable is way different. Now assume that God is omnipotent. I would assume that time has no meaning to him, so changes in the science of men doesn’t affect what he judges as right and wrong. In biblical times, God condemned sexual promiscuity. As such, if he were consistent in his judgment, we would be seeing random frat houses and cheap motels hit with fire and brimstone every night. While this is hilarious and I would totally support it, this obviously doesn’t happen. God’s definition of wrong and right hasn’t changed, only our perception of it as time changes. Assuming that one is Catholic, both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have stated that evolution is basically the truth, and that belief in both it and God are not mutually exclusive. So homosexuality occurs as a means of evolutional population control and increased resource gathering (feeding less families=more total food). The main point here is that you can’t really use such a contextual piece of literature as absolute proof that the divine being one worships condemns such a specific action.
Dude, you haven't studied the Bible enough to quote those famous verses. If you interpret the Bible literally then you need to know the whole Bible and not just the parts you like or want to believe. The apostle Paul says in Thesslonians 5:21,"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good." If you interpret the Bible literally then what do you have to say about this verse? The Bible is a book about God's love for the world, not a book about sexual orientation. Also if you think the Bible should be interpreted literally then when it says in Deuteronomy 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. Should that also be taken seriously? Or do you just get to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you like.
So. It’s not my contention that I know a whole hell of a lot about the bible. But I was raised in a church-going Christian family. In fact, my father graduated from Seminary. I’ve memorized my share of bible verses and would say I have a good foundation in the Christian religion. But I cannot advocate for throwing bible quotes at people to attempt to prove a point. Original thought is always more genuine and therefore far more persuasive. But since you’ve already started with the bible-flinging. I think it would be beneficial if you looked at some of my bible quotes. Exodus 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must! grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." Interesting! My father is 73 years old. He’s recently retired from a public school in inner-city Philadelphia. And? Well, their retirement package isn't so hot. With your knowledge of the bible could you please point me to a verse that would give my father an idea of a fair price for my older sister? Next: Exodus 35:2 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." I think Barack Obama insists on working on the Sabbath. Does the whole country stone him or is it just the Secret Service’s obligation? The words we use to define our gods and our beliefs are only valuable in that we assign them worth. The bible has been calculatingly misused by the controlling race, class, and gender, to justify every civil rights violation in history. The bible has been trumpeted righteously and with vengeance, on both sides of any war. It’s been called into service to suppress every unwelcome change to conventional principle. The gay rights argument is just the latest in a long history of harmful biblical interpretation by ignorant or intolerant people. Even if the bible does demonize homosexuality (and it doesn’t, unless you’re hanging out with Ted Haggard). This is America. Last I checked, our country is not governed by faith. Freedom of religion should translate into freedom from religion. Opposition to gay rights based on religious interpretation is simply un-American.
We just have to keep in mind that homosexuality is GREATLY condemned in some religions, and despite all that was said during lecture, the bible still says that it is a sin. I am Catholic, but do not agree with the church’s view on gay rights. I do not necessarily support gay marriage, but rather do not care too much about the subject, and believe that our innate human rights should allow same sex couples to have some sort of legally recognized union. If the Pope was to internationally address the Catholic community, then I am willing to bet the majority of Catholics would re-think, and ultimately change their minds about gay marriage.
The government should have never let some states legalize gay marriage. Marriage is a sacred thing; God said that himself, it is union of two people from the opposite sex. Gay people should be able to be in a relationship if they choose to; even if I disagree with that, it is their lives. However, they should not be able to get married. We all know that God don’t agree with homosexuality and we all also know that God is the one that make a marriage sacred, so this don’t things can’t go together. If he disagrees with homosexuality, which automatically means that he is against their unions too. Again, God disagree with a lot of things and who am I to judge gay people.
What ever happened to separation of church and state? If your religion tells you that God does not want Gay people to get married, then express this by not allowing it in your church. However, over 1,000 legal rights come with marriage. It is not fair that people do not have these rights even if they have been in a relationship for many years.
If you would rather not allow same-sex couples to be married in your church or by your Priest, Minister, Reverend, Rabbi, etc. then that's fine. But I do not think religion should have a say in hospital visits, property taxes, Social Security, and many other rights that come with marriage. Especially not in a country where there is not a national religion and there is supposed to be separation of church and state.
To keep all of these rights from a certain community because of a personal religion that not everyone in the country adheres to just doesn't seem right to me.
Exactly. I am neutral on the topic of same-sex marriage, and I was wondering about the separation of church and state as well. I know this country was founded by people with religious ideals, but I always thought under the separation of church and state laws weren't supposed to favor one religion over another. So why should there be laws banning same-sex marriage on the basis of verses in the Bible? I like jsk's point, about maybe having certain churches not marrying gays if they so wish. Personally I think it's not the government's place to have such laws if their only footholds are the beliefs of a few religious people. Not everyone in this country interprets the Bible literally.
j0hnnytsunami Reply: February 20th, 2010 at 12:39 am
How can government not be involved, be realistic about the situation. a lot of people follow the bible and a lot of its verses, and that fact that gay people want to be part of that is messed up. If gays want the same rights, then fight for that, not for the marriage, as stated millions of times across these past few blog entries, marriage is between two people of the "opposite sex." So again if they want the rights behind a marriage then they should be fight for that right, not the marriage aspect. The church as a right to not give marriages to people that same sex and should not let the state government force them to do so.
I think people still do not want to support gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Although I think most people that are non supporters think the way they do because they are stubborn. It is the same reason that there are still racists because people are stubborn and do not want to admit that their viewpoint is wrong or unjustified. If more and more people heard this lecture then I think more people that are on the fence about supporting gay marriage would be supportive, yet there will always be some amount of stubborn people that refuse to support it.
You are the kind of person that I simply cannot understand. You stand up for what you believe in, something to be commended, but then proceed to talk down others for holding their own beliefs. Your comments are way out of line. Holding racist views and holding views opposing gay marriage are no where even close to each other. In fact, they’re not even in the same ballpark. Racism involves hating another person solely because of their skin color. You can oppose gay marriage and not hate gay people whatsoever. I fall into this category. I have one gay friend and one bisexual friend. Do I say that to protect myself from possible backlash or to try to establish credibility in this area? No, because I honestly do not care what others think. I will continue to feel the way I do. I can only hope everyone has this attitude, including the gay people out there who choose to fight for marriage rights, despite people (like me) who oppose it. I do not oppose gay marriage because of my Catholic background. I oppose it because I believe the sacrament of matrimony was intended to produce future generations. This cannot happen between two males or between two females without the help of modern sperm donation technology. And I am not going to fall in line with the dozens of people in SOC 119 who sit in Sam’s class as if they are under a spell and just eat up everything he says. Sorry, Sam, but not everyone is a little bisexual as you claim. If you are, and I clearly think you are, that’s fine. But please stop generalizing everything to the point where you say we are all the same. We are not all the same, and that right there is the beauty of life. If we were all the same, life would be bland. And if people did not stand up for whom they are, be it their race, sexual orientation, or religion, then there would be no pride in this world. Going back to my beliefs, I support love first and foremost. If two men love each other, then it is my belief that they should be with each other. The same goes for two women. I would never be kept from the one I love. It is merely my humble opinion that marriage should not be included in these bonds for there is no chance of reproducing. Many agree with me; many do not. And I am happy that there are people who oppose me. It proves that there are people willing to fight for their beliefs rather than simply accept defeat. As to the poster I am responding to, grow up. The fact that you support gay marriage does not make you the best person in the world. Stand up for your beliefs, but refrain from insisting those whom you disagree with are “wrong”.
Many religions beliefs think its wrong to accept gay marriage into society and in god's world. In the bible, god created both man and woman to unite and marry. The concept of religion against gay marriage is same as concept of racism against a person's outside appearance, biased. People in the world live in old ways, never to adjust to the things of change. Sam's discussion on gay marriage outside of religion makes sense due to the concept that lgbt are simply people with interest that outside public simply does not understand. God in my belief is considered an outstanding god, loving all of his children. Due to anger and discrimation, people think god is a strict god and biased which i simply is false.
I think homosexuality is an urge some people experience and others do not. Sam pointed out no one would want to be homosexual if they had a choice because you are discriminated against, shunned from your family, and have a disadvantage in the world. If you look at it that way it makes total sense. However (not to compare homosexuality to crack cocaine it is just an example) I feel this theory could be applied to other incidences like crack cocaine. Crack cocaine is highly addictive, detrimental to your health; most people who become addicted usually end up having extreme problems with their family, job, and money. Being addicted to crack cocaine is highly detrimental to your life physically and mentally not in the same way being homosexual is detrimental, but point is both can be detrimental.
So who on earth would want to do crack cocaine, look at all the disadvantages of it. However many people still do crack cocaine. Same with homosexuality, who would want to be homosexual? There are many disadvantages.
Sams argument is homosexuality is not a choice because who would want to choose it. However crack cocaine is a choice but if you asked anyone on earth who was addicted if they rather not be addicted they would say yes. I believe homosexuality is an urge some people experience and others do not. Just like doing drugs, some people have to urge to do them and act on it, some people have the urge and do not, and some just never have the urge. The same principle applies to homosexuality. Some people are just born with the urge to do it, but the sin of acting out on it is the sin in the eyes of the church. Just like alcoholism, some people take a sip of beer and never have the urge to get drunk and some people take a sip and need more. So some people have to urge to sin and others do not. Whether or not one acts out on it is the decided factor. Some people have it tougher than others, more obstacles like Sam talked about. For some people if they never did alcohol, drugs, or premarital sex in their life it is not big deal, others live for those three things. It is a complex mix of how you were raised, your genetic makeup, and your independent will power and decision making.
All in all I feel a hint of homosexuality is a choice, much like partaking in premarital sex or getting drunk. Some people just have much stronger urges than others. However I honestly feel if homosexuality is 100% biological than there is no way it can be a sin.
I agree with a lot of the points you made in your post here. I also thought it was interesting and agreed when Sam pointed out that many people know that they're gay or lesbian at a very young age. And in many instances you can tell that people are gay or lesbian early on. Why would they want to choose that lifestyle? So many people think that being homosexual is immoral and discriminate against for their sexual preferences. I think you make a great point about crack users. However, I do not agree that homosexuality is a choice at all. I have many gay and lesbian friends and they all say that they didn't choose to be gay. One friend is actually one of my best friends and he came out when he was about 15 and lost a lot of his friends. His family put him in therapy to try to get his homosexuality to go away. His parents told him he had to be straight or he had to move out of the house. He chose to move out. Why would someone choose to be shunned by their family and so many of their friends?
Part 1: First, I would like to say that I did not believe this was "the best lecture ever". In fact, and I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, it seems that every lecture is the new best lecture except for all of the other lectures. Also, I am curious how this lecture topic ties in with the the course title, race relations. I just do not see the connection between the topic of LBGT and race.
As far as looking at homosexuality from a religious perspective I agree and disagree with many of the things already posted. As a Jew, I believe that homosexual acts are wrong because that is what God said. And it is simply a matter of faith. I cannot prove or disprove God's existence, and thus definitevely prove or disprove His "word". This is actually good thing because being able to prove the existence of God will effectively eliminate de facto freedom of choice, but that is not the real issue here. Alot of people seem to be hung up on the idea that condemning homosexuality from a religious standpoint is especially hypocryitc because we all comitt sins.
To the statement, "I just do not see the connection between the topic of LGBT and race."
Obviously those who are LGBT are often discriminated against. Many spend their whole lives either dealing with that hate, or trying to hide their true identity because they think people will not accept them for who they truly are. Similarly, people of color have always been discriminated against. However, people of color cannot hide their identity; they have to deal with it. I think Sam just wanted to make a connection from one group who is discriminated against to another. I think he wants people to realize how similar we all really are and maybe get rid of some of the hatred in this world.
Also, sometimes professors just like to share some insight on important matters. Whether you believe it or not, that class on Tuesday forever changed the lives of at least a few people.
Buddy, if you don't like the lectures then get the fuck out. As a Jew you should know that no Jew in the Bible ever condemned homosexuality, not even Jesus. I agree with you that we all do commit sins so we need to stop being so critical of gays and lesbians. It is crazy to me that people care so much about other peoples business and personal lives. If someone is gay I don't care be gay do what you have to do just don't get in my business about my personal life. People need to relax and live their own lives and stop being so concerned with how their friends or neighbors are living. We all have our vices, people need to accept that and move on.
Part 2: This is true, but it is true of everything. No one is perfect, and no one pretends that their perfect. So there is nothing unique, from a religious standpoint, in committing one sin, be it homosexuality or theft, not that the two are on the same level, and committing another sin be it pre-marital marriage or murder, again not that the two are on the same level. So the problem only arises when one assumes that they are perfect and commit no sins yet condemn other people's sins. From a religious standpoint we should all strive, to minimize sin, however unattainable that may be because we are all only human.
As for gay marriage, I have no issue with two people of the same sex coming together in some sort of union, recieving benefits, and attaining the status of married couples; however, I do not believe it should be called marriage. It can be called egairram or kerplak or a union or anything else. But marriage, as a traditional institution with roots in religion, is defined as a union between a man and a woman. And I am not prepared to change this definition. Likewise, the union of a man and woman cannot be called egairram or kerplak because a man and a woman together is a marriage.
Part 3: This is simply the culture and traditions of our society and I do not see that it should change. Another issue, I think, is we allow unions for men and women, and people of the same sex. What about for polygamists? What if I really love five other women who all love eachother and me. Who is to say that we should be denied a union? What if I love my pet goat. I mean I really love it and want to spend the rest of my life with my goat, LeRoy, should there be some sort of institutiuon to recognize us? And what if I want to marry my sister because we truly love eachother, who is to say I cannot marry her. Now I am not saying these things should be or shouldn't be allowed. It is a tough issue and I do not have a concrete opinion, yet. But it is certaintly something to think about.
I agree 100% with this question, especially after the class that we just had on Tuesday. For those who are against gay marriages, why why why? The marriage between two other people who you most likely do not know is none of your damn business! They love each other the same way that you love your husband, wife, girlfriend or boyfriend. Why would you want to interfere with that? I just do not understand why straight people would care, because the marriage between two other people who are in love does not involve them whatsoever. You can go ahead and try to bring religion into this, but I personally look at your "beliefs" that condemn gays the same way that you look at gay marriages. You think it is disgusting and wrong. I think the fact that you want to interfere with the lives of other people in a negative way is disgusting and wrong.
Although today’s lecture brought about many good points, I can still understand why people would not support gay marriage IF it were only for religious reasons. I do not agree with people who do not support gay marriage, but if it goes against someone’s beliefs about god and how god wants life I can understand. However, I do not think that there should be anything about homosexuality in any type of religious bible. There is nothing wrong with people who are gay. In fact, I can definitely say that I know a gay married couple (that truly loves one another) that is raising their children much better than many messed up families with parents who hate each other.
After Tuesday’s lecture, I too do not understand how somebody can walk out of the classroom with the same beliefs they walked in with. It really is hard for me to accept people’s thinking that involve the bible so much in politics and what should be allowed in our government. What ever happened between the separation of church and state? Obviously our government has a problem separating these two things to begin with, but the topic of gay marriage is so blatantly dealing with religion, it is a shame that these discussions can take place when dealing with law. I’m Jewish, and in that way I guess some Christians would call me a sinner too right? Why am I allowed to get married if marriage is something so sacred? Why stop at just segregating same sex marriage? Where is this line drawn? What makes certain sins right and other sins wrong? People who aren’t even religious get married, it is in no way sacred or religious for these people, should this even be allowed? Why do the super religious care so much about what other people are doing with their lives? I understand completely that this is not only Christians, but many other religions, including Judaism, which restricts gay marriage, I just do not understand why it is brought into our government. Marriage today is all about law, people get married for the right to share taxes, wealth, among other things. I guess what I don’t understand is why people outside of the marriage are allowed to judge and tell citizens of the United States what they can and can’t do. In this aspect, it is similar to the issue of abortion. We are supposively living in a “free” country, however, the government is trying to restrict what we do in our private lives. How can our government tell us who it is acceptable to love? We will never become more accepting of people who are different from us in society, unless our government takes a step forward. This is a two way street, societal beliefs and the government must evolve together in becoming more accepting of different kinds of people.
It just seems ridiculous to me that people can say that our country gives equal rights and opportunities when there are laws instated which are preventing just that. Why do we even pretend that we separate church from our government if it is everywhere in these debates? We need to not only stand up against the issues on hand but also on the bigger picture. When are the non-religious or non-Christians going to be able to stop having to stand up for themselves against the church in our country?
Sam’s lecture brought out amazing points about gay marriage rights. I completely think that gay people should have the same rights as straight people. However, there are religious people out there who follow every teaching and idea in their religion. A lot of people live to serve their religion. They feel their sole purpose of life is to be a disciple of their scripture. A lot of these religions don’t agree with gay marriage or with being gay at all. If that’s part of their religion and their extremely devout, chances are their not going to change their opinions. We don’t understand the exact reasoning behind their beliefs or how it affects their day-to-day life. We just understand that it’s part of their religion and their following their teachings.
Honestly, I ask myself this question too. I don't understand how even religious people can be so anti homosexuals. Okay, yeah I understand that it is against their religion, but in most religions, you should not judge other people. We all sin, everyone lies and "in the eyes of God" these things are all similar, whether you kill, steal, lie, are homosexual, or whatever. It's just annoying that people honestly think that just because they believe solely in their religion, that they are completely one hundred percent correct. Can we be a little more open minded please? Everyone lives by these ridiculous social standards and you can't truly be happy unless you rip away from the societal strings; at least as much as possible. Anyone and everyone has the right to be whatever religion they want, and have their own morals, so why can't homosexuals believe that it is okay to be homosexual? What if the world decided that it just wasn't okay to be Catholic, or to have brown hair, or to go to the mall, or to have sex with people of the opposite sex. It's like a bunch of religious Hitler's running around preaching what is right, when I'm sorry I didn't know that WE ARE ALL HUMAN; and equal. So get over yourself, you homophobic person, whoever you are, and walk into reality.
I completely agree with this question. I also agree with the many other people who responded to this blog that religion is a key reason why individuals do not believe in gay marriage. I don't understand this though because many of those who cite religion as a reason against gay marriage, do other things that religion prevents them from doing anyway. People act like the love between gay and lesbian couples is some kind of crazy ludicrous idea. Why should these people be judged because they love someone of the same sex? They love in the same way that heterosexual couples do, it's just between two people of the same sex. I just don't get it.
I wholeheartedly believe with just about everything Sam said in class on Tuesday about gay marriage. For me this class was all about things many of us deny or refuse to believe. Many of us are all bisexual to some degree. And most importantly, it is absolutely ridiculous to not believe in gay marriage. I have a question for all of you who use religion as a reason for not supporting gay marriage. Have you ever stolen, coveted something, lied, gotten drunk, committed adultery, or had sex? If the answer to any of those is yes, than you are a complete HYPOCRITE. As Sam said, the Bible forbids all of these actions and practices equally. So why is the practice of homosexuality any worse? Obviously divorce and unhappy marriages are common in this country. Those are often between heterosexual couples. Why do they have the right to be together in an unhappy marriage while two people who truly love one another cannot be together? Again and again in the Bible, God encourages us to love and accept one another, no matter what. It should be obvious that homosexuality is not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be part of group of people who are disrespected and abused for their way of life?
I was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic. At Sunday School once a week my teachers would read passages from the bible, tell me rules, and make me memorize prayers. I often struggled to fully comprehend the significance of what I was being told. From a young age I was being forced to think a certain way and believe certain things without actually understanding what it meant. Essentially I was being brainwashed. I think this happens to many people who are taught to believe certain things at a young age. Slowly, over time we lose the capacity to think for ourselves. My family was never completely in love with the monotonous Catholic services and ways, so around the time I was 15 we began to attend a Methodist church. The Sunday School at the Methodist church completely transformed my view of religion. I went from hating those once a week meetings to looking forward to them. The leaders at the Methodist church encouraged me to love and accept other people and, most importantly, think for myself. I was allowed to form some of my own opinions about the Bible and religion in general. I learned to love going to church, seeing the people I was with, and praising God.
Now, I do not intend to criticize a certain religion and praise another. I simply want to make the point that too many people are brainwashed into thinking a certain way. Particular cultures socialize us to think a certain way. An important lesson to take away from this might be the importance of love and acceptance. For me, religion is about mostly about love and acceptance. Therefore, it makes utterly no sense why two people who love one another cannot be accepted. If more people could think for themselves, instead of what teachers tell them the Bible says, maybe we wouldn't have so many problems in the this world.
So maybe if you are one of those people who didn't really agree with Sam on Tuesday, maybe you just need to give it a chance. If you came in with the idea that gay marriage is wrong, maybe you just need to open up a little bit. Try really thinking about the matter for yourself, rather than just believing something that someone else told you to believe. To those of you who refuse to budge and stand completely against gay marriage, please stop being hypocrites. It's really not helping anyone. In the end, I agree with kar's earlier post, “You think it is disgusting and wrong. I think the fact that you want to interfere with the lives of other people in a negative way is disgusting and wrong.”
I feel as though sitting through the lecture on Tuesday should have opened up everybody’s eyes to something they were not aware of before. I know for a fact that it really made me think deeply about the LGBT issues we discussed, and I became aware of many aspects of it. One thing that helped was when Dr. Richards showed us the slide with the different types of married couples and their motives. For example, there were the gold diggers, big gaps in ages, and other marriages based on the wrong reasons. If your sex is the only factor that allows you to get married, I think there is something wrong with society. If two gay people are actually very happy together and have a supportive and loving relationship, they should be given the rights to be together in marriage. People should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they are not harming others. How can the marriage of two people of the same sex be harmful to others? Just like we learned in class, those people who disagree with homosexuality due to religious reasons should think before they say anything. I am sure they have committed other sins, especially in the categories of fornication and drunkenness and covetousness. Even if they have not actually committed these sins, they should treat homosexuality just like any other sin. If they lobby against homosexual marriages, they should do the same when it comes to drinking and having sex. If they do not do that, they are just being hypocrites. While nobody wants to believe they are hypocrites, they should realize that they are when they speak out against homosexual marriages but not drunkenness. Something else that bothers me is when straight people make the legislation that denies gay marriage. They do not care about the feelings of gay people in that situation because they, as heterosexuals, can marry people of the opposite sex. Maybe they should be told they cannot marry who they love, and we would see how different the legislation would be. Lastly, I really liked how Dr. Richards compared gay people to people of color. I believe that homosexuality is mainly genetic, just like the color of somebody’s skin. Therefore, why should people hide their homosexuality if they should not hide the color of their skin? It is so natural and unavoidable. Sure, society is not fully comfortable with open homosexuality, but until it becomes more prevalent, how can that change? People seem to have a natural tendency to debate and emphasize many issues that surround our society. It is as if people feed off of whatever bit of issue they can get and then blow it up to feed their natural drive to debate. What I love to see, though, is people who have nothing to do with the issue giving their input and expecting everyone to listen to it. This goes along with the heterosexuals who are against gay marriages and make the legislations and hold rallies to fight it.
Religion is the main answer to this question. Especially with the older population. Same sex relationships were very uncommon a while back, so older generations do not see the reason to homosexual relationships. They also believe that a marriage is meant to produce children. Religion plays a huge part in the debate a same sex marriage because some people believe gay marriage is a sin. Though nobody can argue God's reasoning, I think it is more important that people are spreading his love around. No matter who we love, God would never be mad. The Bible was written a long time ago and times have changed. I don't think should be allowed to revise the Bible, but we should be able to add new experiences and realize that God would never punish.
One important concept to maintain is that, yes the lecture presented many great points in favor of LGBT marriage, however we have only been formally presented, so to speak, with one side of the argument. There is no doubt in my mind that a lecture presenting the opposing side of this argument would also stir up some emotion and have many people signing their name on that particular side. Case in point is that although the points made were logical, it is essential to incorporate examples from both sides of this argument before one can truly determine their opinion. To do so prematurely would be irrational.
I agree that it is ridiculous to not allow gay couples a certified union, but I still do not believe that it should be called a marriage. Allow me to begin by saying I am not religious, and I do not believe gay marriage to be a sin, but I still do not think that a union between two men or a union between two women should be called a marriage. Marriage was traditionally a purely religious ceremony, and then the state adopted marriage and further solidifies the union, but since the beginning of our country, marriage has shifted from purely church and state to society. The term, and the idea, marriage has grown to mean a union between to men and two women. The traditional fairytale of the very young girl planning out her wedding with her friends is an example of what marriage represents. An equal union would be the only logical answer. It may not be fair, because of the whole separate but equal argument, but thats just the way the cookie crumbles. I would imagine that the reason members of the LGBT community want marriage, as opposed to a separate but equal union, is because of what marriage represents to society. They want to be the same, and share the same union. However, by definition, marriage is between a man and a woman. No matter how you look at it, no matter which way you slice it, the church originated marriage. And by the churches definition, marriage is between a man and a woman. Although society has adapted the term, the power still lies with the church. It is not up to us to decide what the church should say. That is being truly conservative. The church is its own establishment. That establishment created marriage. Nobody can tell them to change, or tell them why they are wrong. For instance, say that I am selling red t shirts to everyone who drives a red car. Then, someone driving a blue car comes up to me. I am willing to sell them a blue t shirt, but not a red t shirt, because it is my business. They are not exactly the same, but that is just the way my business is run. It is equal. I am not discriminating. Now replace me with the church, red t shirts with marriage, and blue t shirts with a separate but equal union. That system would work well, and nobody can argue that it is not fair to members of the LGBT community. If you want to argue that separate but equal is not truly equal, fine, but you have to remember that it is still the churches call, and who are we to decide what the church, which is its own organization, should sanctify?
The subject of gay marriage vs love will always be one that will never be 100 percent agreed upon. I am catholic and I have always been brought up in the church, attending every Sunday. Now, for me to say that I truly follow all the things that I am supposed to as a Catholic, I do not. We are all sinners and that is the way it was supposed to be. I have sinned and broken many of the commandments but at the same time there are certain ones that I will never fall to. One being gay marriage. I have no problem with gay or lesbian people, I have a problem with the idea of calling their "marriage" a marriage. I believe the word marriage was made in the church and it should always stay that way. Some people argue that they are not homosexual and do not have a religion but will one day call their "marriage" a marriage. If this means we need to call two people coming together in love wanting to spend the rest of their lives together something different for non religious, religious and homosexual people then I believe that is what should be done. God created Adam and Eve to reproduce and create future life and followers of God. If two men and two women were supposed to be together then why are our reproductive organs made to fit the opposite sex? Matrimony was created in the church and should remain in the church. My roommates were a little disturbed that even after the lecture I disagreed with Sam on the subject of LGBT people, mainly just gay marriage. No offense to Sam, but we are not the same people and we all have the right to believe what we want and for you to say we are "wrong" is wrong of you. He made good points but I am strongly associated with my church and will continue to believe the things I have and always will be taught. I do not disagree that two women or two men can love each other but as I said before the word marriage was made in the church and therefore should not allow gay or lesbian people to marry. The same way people "just can't believe people do not agree with gay marriage" is the same way us who believe it is wrong, disagree. What makes what the LGBT community/ believers/ supporters right in what they believe and the people who do not agree wrong? It doesn't. No matter how you look at it, the word marriage was made for a man and a women and it should continue to stay that way for all time. Call it something else and it wouldn't create as much controversy and arguments. Again, I do not have a problem AT ALL with people who choose to love another man or another women. That is there right to decide and their will but I disagree that they should be able to get "married." If gay marriages become legalized then the meaning of marriage for many religious people will not have the same values.
Now I’m for gay marriage and those people should have all the rights that marriage should allow but hey this is what some people think. When you enter into a marriage you do it because you love each other not for the tax breaks right. You get married because you want to have children and grown as a family. Well there it is other than the fact that two people of the same sex can’t have children and be a real family it make no sense to say that they are really married and can procreate. Yeah that is a little Christian right wing but the 80’s were Christian right wing. Older people don’t want to hear this bull shit that gays are equal they didn’t grow up that why. Don’t worry they will all be dead one day and gays will freely marry each other and everyone will be the same and the world will be in peace.
I am someone that still is not on one side of the fence or the other. I mean I am not homophobic and in fact I have one “friend” that is gay. I put friend in quotes only because we were more of acquaintances than friends, for that he played on my high school volleyball team with me. The reason can’t be directly pin pointed for why some people remain against gay marriage, and when I say gay I mean both lesbian and gay marriages. Well I was never really in support of it because a marriage is simple, the definition of a marriage. Dictionary.com says a marriage is “–noun, the social institution under which a MAN and WOMAN establish their decision to live as a husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.” A marriage is something that is in between a male and a female. Not a male and male, or not a female and female. I believe that gays should have their own thing, that doesn’t have to be much different but the definition of that word, whatever it is will be, “–noun, the social institution under which a MAN and MAN or WOMAN and WOMAN establish their decision to live as a husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.” That being said, I do believe that gays are deserving of equal rights in society and should be socially acceptable. However, there is one right that I am against, which sounds wrong, but I do not believe gay couples should be able to adopt children. And if gay marriage was accepted this would only promote gay couples adopting children. I feel like I would not be anything close to what I am today if I was only raised by two moms or two dads. They each can provide such a contrasting parental raising experiences and lessons.
Another big reason why many people do not support the gay marriage is because of their religious views. However, I am not one to use this as a reason because this usually leads to the people that pick and choice their sins, hypocrites. And really, I believe if the religious followers had the persuasion of their religion lifted from their shoulders, I’d bet they would change their minds about gay marriage.
During Tuesday’s lecture Sam pointed out the fact that other animals participate in homosexuality, and really more than I ever thought did. And in their animal communities, this isn’t looked down upon, at least to our knowledge. Relating this to the topic at hand, if humans weren’t cursed with a conscience we wouldn’t think anything of any homosexual acts. But we are cursed, so it isn’t accepted by everyone. And these people that do not accept it will not support gay marriage. These were just a few of reasons some people would not support gay marriage.
To answer your question, I think that it is very well possible to still believe that gay marriage is wrong after taking this class. Why? Although I am a firm believer in gay rights and marriage, there are a number of people in this class that have grown up in different backgrounds and with different values that have become a part of their entire being. These values against gay marriage have become a part of their mold and being. It is hard to completely change the mindset of people that have been taught one way for so long in their life. If anything, I feel this class definitely opens one’s eyes to the different perspective, but to change someone’s life and thought structure is very difficult to make happen.
First off, I have to say, that I greatly enjoyed Sam’s lecture on LGBT issues. I learned a lot and it opened my eyes to things that I might not have thought about prior to that lecture. But with that said, I still do not agree with the gay lifestyle. Personally, I am a Christian, and as stated in previous posts, there are numerous Bible verses within our religion that simply states, homosexuality is wrong. But, that does mean that I don’t think it’s OK for people to be gay. I’m sure you’re thinking, “What the hell is this person talking about, that makes no sense,” but hear me out.
As a Christian, I accepted Christ into my heart and fully believe the things of the Bible. Yes, they are written from people, but they are God-inspired. Although there are various Bible verses talking about how perverse a gay lifestyle is, it never once says that we should condemn, ridicule and put down these people. I have many gay friends, and I love each and every one of them. I would personally never be gay, but I would also never tell them that they are wrong in being gay themselves. God makes people all differently, straight, gay, bi or transgendered. It is our own choice or lot in life to be who we are and while I, as a Christian am not gay, I will never, never put anyone that is gay down for their life or beliefs.
I also completely agree with a separation between church and state- hence why I don’t have a problem with gay marriage. Even if people believe that marriage is an institution, consecrated by God, sometimes it simply isn’t. You can be technically married without having to go into a church. Gay people should be allowed the same rights that their fellow Americans are allowed as well. Gay people are still sons and daughters of God, whether other Christians like it or not, they should be treated as such as well.
I think it is obvious why people wouldn't support gay marriage. Plain and simple, there are a lot of stupid, crazy people in this world. I probably shouldn't call people stupid for believing in a certain belief but, what the hell, I think they are. This is a country founded by and filled with religious fanatics. It's really an entire world filled with religious freaks and those people can be as stubborn as a mule when it comes to sticking by their guns and what they are told by their religion. Don't quote me word for word on this but to my knowledge the bible says marriage is a sanction between man and wife. Therefore, the reason why so many people disagree with gay marriage is because they believe this is violating that sanctity. The thing we don't realize going to a school filled with so many eighteen to twenty-two year olds is that Penn State isn't a representation of the entire country. Outside of Penn State and the small liberal communities or big urban cities most of us come from, the rest of the United States of America is filled with bible-thumping religious fanatics. They make up the majority of this country. How else do you explain an idiot like George W. Bush being elected president … twice! That is because most people are blind to being able to think for themselves and just go by whatever the Bible says. These aren't all Christians, these are simply the ones who are fanatical in the Bible belt of America. The average Christian that I meet (I'm Jewish) may be really religious and go to church, but for the most part they are open-minded and hip with the 21st century and two dudes or chicks getting married. That isn't how most people are though. Most of those people aren't going to college or at least aren't going to a school like Penn State. This isn't just America though and not just about gay marriage. There are religious fanatics all over the world who listen to their book of worship without any questions asked. The terrorist attack of September 11th is a prime example. It was for religious reasons and they thought they were fulfilling their religious destinies. I'm not comparing being against Gay Marriage and killing thousands of people but in a way I am. It is simply proof that a lot of people, no matter how crazy it might seem to fly a plane into a building or how crazy it is to be against two people in love getting married, will do anything their religion says. And in this situation, their religion says shame on two men or women ruining the sanctity of marriage. Crazy world we live in, right?
What I don't understand is if one has these beliefs that gays cannot get married, because it is against their religion, then why do people tolerate marriages under other religions. In both cases you think the other people are wrong, and because they do not accept your religion they will burn in hell for all eternity. So why does one bother you more than the other? Can't you people just do what you always do when people don't believe the same things you do. Just take solace in knowing that no matter what happens to everyone else, you still will have your spot in heaven. Maybe I'm missing the mark. Maybe you don't want to see gay marriage happen because you think by denying them that, you are saving their souls from damnation. But if that were true, wouldn't you also be protesting every other church and every other practice that isn't yours. Just a thought.
I think Sam made a really good point in Tuesday’s class concerning this. Many people are cool with the idea of allowing gay couples to unify. However, a lot of people have a problem with calling it marriage. Marriage, as Sam said, is where church and state slightly overlap. Although the sacrament of marriage is deemed as a religious-like ceremony, the state must sign off on it as well. Personally, if I could get “unioned” with my significant other with all the benefits of an actual marriage, then that would be fine with me. Some diehard gays out there may demand equality in the form of actual marriage, but as long as I’m legally with the person I want to be with, I can care less what you call it.
I’d also like to introduce another topic concerning this: what about the economic benefit of legalizing gay marriage? I can’t remember the exact number, but I believe Sam gave the class a 6 figure number of how many gay couples there are in the United States. If even a fraction of them were able to get married, all the money used to prepare the wedding services could potentially boost our economy. Any other thoughts on this?
I think that Sam made a great argument at class for gay marriage but people who do not believe in it are always going to have their reasons to be against gay marriage. There are certain people you can sway, but the majority of extreme right-wing will not change their stance. They continuously go back to the religion issue and that remains their only defense. To them marriage is a religious institution defined by the church as being between a man or a woman and until the wording in the bible is changed, I don’t think these people will change their minds.
I would like to begin by saying that I am not religious at all. I do not believe in the church or anything like that. However, I do believe that gays and lesbians should be able to marry and call it marriage. I know the word marriage and the church originated all of that stuff, but I mean its not the 1500s anymore. It is 2010 and the gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry one another and call it a marriage. Now I believe that being homosexual is not a choice, you are born with urges and those urges ultimately determine whether or not you like the opposite sex or the same sex. You cannot choose whom you like and what sex you like, it just happens. Going back to gay marriages though, gays and lesbians are people and have their rights. If you are not going to allow them to marry and call it marriage not a union, then what is the United States really about? United States represents a FREE country and has been accustomed to change in its history. So why not approve of gay marriage? Especially after the lecture that we had, I see no reason why it should not get approved.
Going to the question at hand, I would like to say that people feel that gay marriage is wrong because traditionally a marriage is between a man and a woman. Marriage is apparently something between a man and a woman so that they can reproduce which one another and start a family. I do not see a problem with having two males or two females being married and then starting a family on their own. They can adopt children and start a family like that. This whole traditional marriage between a male and a female argument is nonsense. At one point in the United States history it was tradition to have a white president, however in 2008 we elected a president who was not white and broke this tradition. What I am trying to say is that some traditions are made to be broken and we do not need to follow all of them. I do support gay marriage, if two males or two females want to get married they can do it. I see no problems with that. You cannot tell someone not to marry someone else because of his or her sexuality. If two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together they should be allowed to get marry and go through all the things that straight couples go through. I do not know that all gay marriages will succeed, which they probably will not, but at least give them the opportunity to experience something with their significant other.
I have the same question after Tuesday's class. Like Sam said, who are we to tell someone who they can and cannot love? As much as some of us wish we could, we cannot help who we love. Love is a beautiful emotion and if you are lucky enough to have a happy, healthy, loving relationship, why should anyone condemn you? I understand that people condemn gay marriage because of the way they interpret the Bible. But that's what it comes down to- interpreting. People have different opinions of every passage in the Bible and no one is in the position to say who is right or wrong. But in the end, would God want us discriminating against people whose only crime they've committed is loving someone they can't help loving?
I am reading some of these comments and some people are still arguing that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage should be banned because "God intended marriage to be a sacred thing between a man and a woman." I would like to start off by saying that no one knows what God says or thinks, everything written in the Bible was written by humans, this is why we have a separation of church and state, so that ignorant people can not run around making laws based on what they think God wants. I don't understand how people who were in class on Tuesday can still argue that being homosexual is a sin when I think Sam clearly demonstrated that people are born that way. Gay people would not go through all they go through and be labeled as outcasts as a choice. The Bible is a great book with a lot of great messages about how people should live their lives, but I think its perspective about homosexuality is wrong. Anything that one writes down will have some sort of bias, and I am sure that the Biblical writers had a bias towards homosexuality because of the society in which they lived in. If a gay person is "living in sin" because he/she is gay, than what are they supposed to do? You can't just switch over and start becoming attracted to another gender. Obviously, some men in prison do sexual things to other men, but this is because they are under different circumstances and don't have a choice and they have been hurt psychologically. If someone told me I should become attracted to men tomorrow, I would tell them that's impossible, I grew up attracted to females and that is just the way I am. If people choose to be gay, than what about those people who get shunned by their parents when they come out of the closet? What about gay people who live in societies in the world where homosexuality is a crime and subject to severe punishment? I know that if I were a gay person growing up in a place like Texas or Alabama I would be scared to walk around. I guess some people think gays will rot in hell just because of the way they were born.
It is hard for me to see how anyone could rationally be against gay marriage. If you are in love with someone, no one should be able to stand in your way. I may have felt differently about gay marriage, up until I entered college. I went to Catholic school my entire life, and even in high school I never came across any act of homosexuality. There were always gay jokes, and thing like that, but I never witnessed any act of homosexuality. I never had an opinion on the subject mainly because it had just never been addressed at home, in school, with my friends, etc. That all changed however, when my roommate in college came out to me. We had been friends in high school, and decided to room together freshmen year. He had a relatively serious girlfriend throughout his senior year, so any thought of him being gay never really crossed my mind. I just thought he was a some-what flamboyant straight dude. After they broke up and I started living with him, his sexual preference became kind of clear. He never hooked up with any girls, and it seemed like women were always just friends with him. Needless to say, it wasn’t a surprised when he told me that he was gay. It honestly did not change our relationship at all, but I do believe that our friendship has positively shaped who I am. If we had never become friends, and never had lived together then I might think differently than I do now about gay marriage. I want him to be happy. That’s all that matters to me, so it honestly is upsetting to me when I think about other people trying to prevent him from being with the person he loves.
He is going to face enough problems in his lifetime, so for that one other issue (gay marriage), to actually be an issue is a major hurdle for him to overcome. He is with a serious boyfriend at the moment. This is actually their second stint together. I like his boyfriend. He’s a cool dude, but regardless all that matters is what my friend thinks of him. My roommate and I are actually close enough to talk about our issues, even though I am straight and he is gay. I talk freely about my feelings towards women, and he sometimes opens up about his relationship problems. The kid is going to face enough trials and tribulations throughout his life, so why does being with the one he loves have to be another one of them? His new year’s resolution is to tell his parents that he is gay. I can’t even imagine how tough that is going to be for him. Then again, I also can’t imagine all of the negativity he may face when trying to be with the one he loves.
To all the people who want to argue "marriage is a sacred institution" and "marriage was intended by God for blah blah blah," I think you should look a the history of marriage and maybe take Soc 030 so you can learn some thing. Marriage in the form we know it has really only been around for 200 years. The way we know it of course, is between a man and a woman who are in love and who decide for romantic reasons that they want to become unified. Before this though, marriage was a financial or political maneuver. People would marry to make connections with another family to gain power or political clout, people would marry for land or for livestock. People got married first for whatever reason, and then learned to live with the person whom they were married to. Marriage was not always about a man and a woman who are in love who want to be with each other forever. I also don't understand how you can argue that marriage is "sacred" when the divorce rate is 50%. Those who are allowed to marry apparently aren't treating it as sacred. The Christian Church and other religions have their own beliefs about marriage, but that needs to stay separate from the state and government.
This class was definitely my favorite thus far because I did not really know what to expect when I first walked in. I was never against gay marriage, although my religion disapproves of it, but after sitting through the class and hearing Sam lecture, I feel more strongly about the issue and feel more passionate about my standpoint on the issue. What Sam said in class was exactly correct. Hypocrisy is a big problem when it comes to the religious argument of gay marriage. So many people against gay marriage have gone against the words of the Bible in so many ways. No one is perfect. So to sit back and say that two gay people cannot be married for religious reasons is unfair.
Another issue is that marriage is supposed to be for life. The person you marry is the person you are supposed to be with forever. If the sacrament of matrimony is so sanctified, then why is it that fifty percent of marriages are ending in divorce? Most divorces are probably because of one or both spouses having an affair, something clearly stated in the Ten Commandments. That is not following the Bible or the word of God either. Gay people have to go through so much more to even find a partner, to be open with people about their sexuality and hope to be accepted for it, to be together under scrutiny. They endure so much more than heterosexual couples have to, making their bond and relationship stronger. They would covet being married more than a heterosexual couple would. The chances of them staying together after marriage is much more likely, so why not?
God created people the way he wanted them to be. If they are gay, then that is the way God chose them to be. They should not be persecuted or treated as lepers because of whom they are attracted to or in love with and should not be denied marriage. A child does not choose to be gay, and to deny them the same things as their peers, such as marriage, would be unfair. It was not their choice. It was how they were born.
Maybe the issue lies in the word itself; marriage. Maybe the definition of the word should be altered to include all unions between any two people instead of it being defined as a religious ceremony to unite a man and woman as husband and wife. Then would people have a problem with it? I feel like the biggest argument against gay marriage is the religious factor.
Seeing as how the corporate world has been so accepting of the homosexual community, I feel as though in the future, gay couples will be able to get married. Unless you are a perfect person and follow the Bible to the “T”, I don’t see how you can still be against gay marriage.
I think that once people see a certain way, especially on a topic such as this, it’s hard to make them change the way they feel. It’s like if you told a racist all the bad things about racism, they would most likely still be racist. I wish that people would change their minds, though. Love is love. It shouldn’t matter what sex someone chooses to love. That’s their choice and it shouldn’t matter to anyone but them. But once someone has made their mind up about something, they are most likely not going to change their viewpoints for anyone.
I have grown up and have been brought up by a catholic family my whole entire life. I went to a catholic school for grade school and have attended church regularly my entire life. Having that being said, I disagree with the catholic church’s stance on gay marriage. There are many people I know in my life that are homosexuals, including one of my aunts and some of my close family friends. I have no problem with their choice of lifestyle. I believe that everyone should do whatever makes them happy. If you like someone of the same sex and choose to be homosexual than that is your choice. I don’t think it is anybody’s right in the world to tell you, that you can’t do that. If that’s what you want to do, then so be it. This is one of the only issues I disagree with about my religion. I just don’t understand how someone can tell someone, “Hey you can’t do this because I don’t think it is right, even it makes you happy, you shouldn’t do this because I don’t believe it is right.” That is basically what the catholic church and some government officials are saying to people who choose their lifestyle. I look at this issue and compare it to back when African Americans were not treated equally by white people. There was so many struggles for so many years, but after a while we realized how wrong this was to not treat another human being equally. It doesn’t matter about what color your skin is, you should be treated the same was any other person in the world. We have made great strides since then and now African Americans are being given the chance to live happily and succeed in ways they were not able to do before. I strongly believe that this is the same process that gay marriage will go through. A few years ago this was widely opposed, but over the years people have become more and more favorable of gay marriages being considered legal and giving them the same rights as other marriages. So, I think in the upcoming years this will finally be a non-issue and gay marriages will get the rights that they want, and in my opinion what they deserve. Now, even though I think that one day the government will come to grips with this issue, I firmly believe that catholic church will not change its stance on it. There have been few to minimal changes over thousands of years with the catholic beliefs and I think this will become no different. Should they change their beliefs on this? Maybe. Will they change their beliefs on this? Never.
In no way do the following arguments necessarily represent my personal opinion, rather they are just what I think are the "answers" to these questions might be. I rather avoid making my beliefs public The question is about gay marriage. Some people have brought up the argument that they would rather it be a union, not a marriage, explaining marriage is a sacrament of the Church. Right, well marriage is a legal title, as well, and that is where this issue is concerned. The church and state are separate. What is the compelling reason for it not be a marriage in the legal sense? Perhaps what I do not understand most is why people care so much? I do not why or gay marriage would directly affect my life so greatly. Maybe there are answers to that, I would like to know. I just find it hard to feel so passionately about something that does not really change me. Denying some one rights is a pretty big thing to fight when you have no actual attachment or relationship with the issue.
I read the majority of these comments and don't even know where to start or who to respond to. I was honestly baffled when reading through these posts at the number of people who said incredibly hateful and "holier than thou" comments. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they please, but I just cannot accept people being disrespectful and even hatred towards another group. Believe what you want but do not judge others or act like you are somehow better than them because you live your life by "the book". And let's not kid ourselves, who actually lives by the book? I would like to follow each of you around for a day who quoted the bible as an attack against gay marriage and see how many sins you commit. Even if you are religious, this really shouldn't even be an issue for you. A legal marriage is granted by the state, and as previous posts noted, we are supposed to have separation of church and state in the United States. It really shouldn't be up to the church or any one religious person to decide if gay couples have the right to get married. If marriages are granted by the state, then they should be equally granted to every United States citizen. If you want to call marriage a "holy matrimony," then get married in a church by a priest and that is your deal. If you want to call gay marriages a union, then all marriages should be called a union.. and "marriages" can only occur under the direction of the church. But, as it was brought up in my discussion group, most people in our country do not keep the "sanctity" or marriage anymore. Considering the divorce rate, number of annulled marriages, number of loveless marriages, etc, etc etc… I just don't see the "sanctity" anymore. It really isn't an issue about right or wrong.. it is an issue about human rights. No religion should get to decide who does and does not get rights in our country. You have every right to think how you please or disagree with what other people do, but those opinions have no place in our laws. And for anyone against gay rights/relationships/marriage, I just want to ask, who are you to judge them? What makes you so righteous? It doesn't make any sense to me. Denying two people love because of a religion that is supposed to be centered around love and acceptance of others. It is just so hypocritical.. and hurtful. Perhaps people should spend a little less time and energy fighting against something that will never affect their life personally, and should begin living their own lives and focus on loving others, like their religion directs them to do.
I agree completely. There is no reason to be against gay marriage whatsoever. Regardless of any traditional definitions of the term, marriage is, in my opinion, a union between two individuals who love each other for any reason they see fit. Who is anyone to say that two people can’t get married. I think this argument is so stupid. I hate listening to people who are against gay marriage. It is so frustrating!
It might be because I am not that religious, which I guess is understandable if you are religious. But thinking that using religion to justify someone against gay marriage is ignorant as well. Why is religion against gay marriage? Because it is not holy? That is so dumb. Religion is just an excuse to hate or be against someone or something. Religion segregates people for no reason. Think about if people did not use religion as justification to oppose gay marriage. There would be so much less hatred in the world. Think about if people did not use religion to justify any opposition. Formulate your own opinions! You can not, or should I say… should not, be permitted to prevent people from doing things just because you don’t approve of it. To each his own! For so few words it really holds a ton of value. Let people be who they want to be, let people do what they want to do. Every action has its consequences, as well as benefits. So, in that case let individuals determine things for themselves.
So, in terms of gay marriage. It should one hundred percent be legalized. Gay marriage is completely okay in my book. For those who oppose, as hard as it may be, put yourself in their shoes. If you love someone, and believe in something as special as marriage, how would you feel if someone prevented you from marrying the person you love. I can guarantee that you would be upset. Listen, gay people are people too. They are made of the same material all humans are made of. They might think differently than straight people, but they are entitled too. That is what makes us all individuals. If everyone was the same, life would be so boring. Live the way you want, do not let other people’s opinions affect who you are or desire to be.
And who knows, gay parents might be much better than some of those straight assholes who neglect their kids and families. Gay couples are forced to adopt their children, for the most part. And, they have to go through a lot to get these adoptions approved, which means that they really really want a child. Thus, they would not neglect this child. I mean, marriage, for a lot of people, is about starting a family. And, there is nothing wrong with a family that functions like a family is supposed to. So if two gay individuals are at the head of this family, so be it. Their children might go on to do great things like cure cancer or discover life on another planet. Then what would some of those stuck up individuals say about gay marriage? You’re right, they would have nothing to say.
I have never believed that being gay is wrong. In my view, you can’t help whom you love or to whom you are attracted. Therefore, since marriage is an expression of love and a symbol that you want to spend the rest of your life with your loved one, I have never believed that gay marriage is wrong. Until I came to this class, I never thought about marriage as a sacred sanction of the church. Therefore, I can understand now that some people think that because being gay violates different religious beliefs, gay people shouldn’t be able to show their commitment to one another through a religious ceremony. However, I agree with Sam that it is important to note who is being a hypocrite. If you are getting drunk all of the time and violating other religious beliefs, then you really have no right to judge what other people do and say that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married.
I think it is interesting how Sam said that he has no problem with someone like the Willard preacher thinking that it is wrong to be gay and therefore wrong to get married. When you think about it, these people really do believe that God literally said the words that are in the Bible and that humans proceeded to write them down. While I’m not very religious, I had a roommate last year who was extremely religious like the Willard preacher, and she believed that it was a sin to be gay. She also thought that it was a sin to be drunk and would therefore pray for my friends and I when we drank. However, one of my other friends explained to me that because she cares about my well being and also does not wish badly on any of my other friends whom she does not know, this was the reason why she prayed for us – because she genuinely believed that we could go to Hell, and she therefore wanted to save us from this fate. After my one friend explained it to me that way, I thought it was sort of nice in a really twisted way. I thought to myself that at least she cared about me enough to pray for me since she thought I was doomed. I’m not sure if this is the same mindset that Christians have about those who are gay, but maybe it is?
I think in terms of gay marriage, I feel that people have the right to choose. I really don’t know if I agree with it or not, because of my religion. However, it does not give me or people that do not agree with it the right to determine what a homosexual couple can do. You cannot bar two people who love each other from getting married, no matter how you feel about it. It is there right, and they have the freedom to do what they please. Can you imagine if there was a law that stated a black person and white person could not be married? It makes absolutely no sense. Just because people’s religions, mine included, state that gay marriage is wrong, it does not mean that they can’t get married. They should be able to follow what they believe and have the same freedoms in marriage as anyone else.
I cannot support gay marriage because it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t care if it’s not a choice according to most people. Plenty of people do things without thinking and plenty of it is looked down upon. Why do people just have to question why people don’t support it? I have always thought that gay marriage was wrong and I may not have any reason behind it but can people give me a legit reason as to why I should support it? Nobody has yet so I will keep going on not supporting gay marriage and I will continue to live my life without caring!
i think that you have the purpose of the class confused. Sam said that he isn't trying to change our views on anything in the world, hes just trying to make us think. Im not saying that i'm against gay marriage, but i dont think its fair to expect someone to change their mind on a topic so large as this. A lot of reasons that people give for not supporting gay marriage is religion. You cant expect someone to walk into class, sit down and listen, and come out completley changed and questioning their religious beliefs, thats just not rational.
Sam made some good points during that lecture but I still do not support gay marriage myself. I am in the category of people who does not care if they are allowed some sort of legal union, but I do not want it to be called marriage. Originally it was because of my church upbringing but if Sam won't accept that argument from someone who does not follow all of the church rules then I am against it for the sake of tradition. Traditionally marriage has been between a man and a woman. There are some older civilizations that would allow same sex relationships but I don't think they were referred to as marriages. The ancient Athenians approved of two men having a relationship and living together but it was an apprenticeship.
Even after today's lecture, I don't believe in gay marriages or gay couples but it did make me accept them more. On the other hand, I don't think everyone who says they are bisexual are bisexual. I think it is just their way of experimenting. Like if a girl decides to make out with another girl or to have sex with another girl when she's in college, then she's just experimenting. This could also be caused by peer pressure; well guys who want to see girls make out and desperate girls who will do anything for attention. If a girl expresses gay behaviors from a young age, then okay I am willing to accept that but either way, I am no one to judge. So gay people, do whatever you want, it's a free country right?!
Certainly I don’t particularly disagree on any particular point made during the lecture, but I can definitely see people that despite what one might hear in a school setting. Generally what I think it comes down to is an individual’s religious beliefs. As we went over in class, a number of different religions specifically identify homosexuality as a sin. So in that case I can certainly understand why someone committed to their faith would be hesitant to support gay marriage. Of course this raises a problem of those same people picking and choosing. If all sins are supposed to be equal, then they would also have to endeavor to ban things like drunkenness in all places, gambling, and a number of other rather commonplace “activities.”
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l2ichlvl Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
I agree that religious beliefs are the one motivator behind disapproving of gay marriage but that does not explain the other people who are not religious and still do not approve. I think it is more of a cultural thing and if you have never been subjected to something, then you are much less likely to understand and accept it. I would bet that most people in the class on Tuesday were less accepting of gays before the class until Sam educated us on a few facts. Of course there will always be people who won’t change their minds despite educated arguments that disprove them, but that is their prerogative. It is our duty to enlighten people on the facts, not make their decisions for them even if they are poor ones.
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jholzberg8 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
I completely agree with this point that Sam Richards made. If people are going to justify their homophobia with religious reasons, claiming it is a "sin," than all other sins such as drunkenness and gambling should be weighed equally. However, I don't think this is the case. I think many people are homophobic and use religion as a crutch for their hatred. If two people, ANY two people, want to get married, I don't understand where other people get off judging their decision. To call it anything less than a marriage is unfair, who says that the straight way or the same-sex way is what is THE way. I don't understand why there has to be just one RIGHT way.
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daniellenitopi Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:49 am
Thank you.
In my honest opinion, people fear what they do not know, and what they do not understand. If I am not mistaken, it was said in class too that a lot of hatred stems from fear, so when most people hate something, deep down, they are actually scared. Homosexuality is an issue that has only become big in recent history, and since people feel this is still a new issue and that people may not know about it, they fear the idea of two people of the same sex being attracted to one another, and wanting to spend their lives together. From a religious perspective, love and marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and homosexuality is deemed as a sin in the Bible. For Christians growing up, since this is what they are taught, heterosexuality is all they know. So, when they encounter something that is radically different from that view, it is frightening and naturally, the defensive reaction is to have a negative view and hate the idea. Also, some of these people fear that if gay marriage is legalized, it downplays the meaning of marriage through their eyes. In turn, they feel threatened by the idea of gay marriage.
However, I do feel that in the coming years, the presence of this opinion will lessen. You can never completely negate this opinion entirely, since religion is not going anywhere anytime soon and Christians/Catholics will still believe this idea, but I am finding that a lot of the negative stigma towards gay marriage is from the older generation of these people. The idea of LGBT back in my parents’ time and older barely existed. Nowadays, it is common to come across people who are gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, trans, etc. And honestly, in my opinion, this is not a huge issue to me anymore. In my eyes, this has become so prevalent in our society, and since my generation is becoming more accepting of this issue, that trend is just going to continue in years, which will help decrease the negative feeling towards LGBT issues.
Lastly, I believe that once you have had some encounter with the LGBT community, over time, it becomes harder to not be understanding and open to their beliefs. Growing up, I lived in an upper-middle class town that was predominately white Christian/Catholic. I had no idea what LGBT was until high school, when I transferred school districts. When I was a freshman, I met a bi-sexual girl who ended up in my circle of friends. At first, the idea of homosexuality did intimidate me because I had no clue what that meant and I could not conceptualize it. However, after I learned more about it and seeing that she was no different than myself, it did not faze me as much and I realize I had become accepting of the LGBT community.
I think that once people get over their fear of LGBT issues, the issues surrounding this particular community will decrease, understanding and acceptance will rise, and steps towards equality for people of all sexual orientations will be made.
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teenzy212 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
Okay so, you are acknowledging the fact that homosexuality is a sin in religion, but aren't all sins supposed to be "forgiven?" If a person sins, they beg for forgiveness from God, and are supposed to be granted that forgiveness. Which, might I add, is why I think religion is pretty ridiculous. Religious people have all of these beliefs, and believe soooo strongly in them, yet if they screw up, they just confess their sins to the Lord and are forgiven. I mean, we're all human, and at least the Bible is making up for that I suppose, BUT if this is true, then homosexuality is just as equally bad of a sin as disobeying one of the Ten Commandments, and should have an equal chance by Mr. God Himself, to be "forgiven," unless God of course picks and chooses, too, as many upon many of His followers.
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teenzy212 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
I'll give God the benefit of the doubt though and say he's going about this "forgiveness" thing pretty equally. So um, what the hell is the problem? It confuses me. If a sin can be forgiven, what is the issue of WHAT sin a person is committing? Is it because gay, lesbian, bisexual, and trans people don't acknowledge their sexual preferences as sins? Or is it because being homosexual is like, a reoccurring sin? I mean seriously I'm confused.
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teenzy212 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:39 pm
I just think if all sins shall be forgiven, then how can religious people who are completely against homosexuality, homosexuals and, or supporters of homosexuality because of religious beliefs, even present that argument at all? It bothers me—I can see, more so, if an individual chooses to not support homosexuality because he is really uncomfortable with it for whatever reason, or does not understand it. I am uncomfortable wearing really tight spandex with tops that do not cover my butt when I am wearing them and so everyone behind me could probably see my entire ass practically as I walk; And I’m really uncomfortable when I see other people wearing these tight spandex pants but hey, whatever I mean, they have a right to and I can’t dictate that, but I have a right to to be completely against tight spandex pants.
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teenzy212 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
So someone who is against homosexuality has a RIGHT to not support homosexuality, even though he should understand that homosexuals have a RIGHT to choose who they want to love, as much as people have a right to choose what they want to wear. Regardless, however, the argument there is more acceptable, in my opinion, than the argument of religious people who are against homosexuality because it is a sin….even though sins are forgiven. Maybe I am completely wrong! I feel like out of the several times a year I'm dragged to church I did get that much from it, that sins may be forgiven.
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akeem10 Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 4:07 am
I can understand why Gay Marriage is still a taboo in the whole world. United States his actually more open towards the Gay marriage than the vast amount of the country in the world. The number reason why Gay Marriage is still a taboo in the world is because of the religious beliefs of people. The major religions all over the world strongly oppose same sex encounters, speak less of gay marriage. They believe that a "marriage" should be between a male and a female, and nothing more. I have nothing against Gays and Lesbians even though my religion opposes it. I have both gay and lesbian friends and I do not judge them based on their sexual orientation. However, the majority of the society still view the marriage as a taboo. I hope this changes towards the future, but we have to change our self first.
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I agree with Sam that this has been the best class so far this semester. First, I'll let you know that I am now friends with a few homosexual males. My sister goes to a musical theater school in Boston and over ninety percent of the males enrolled in her school are gay. When I visit her from time to time, it is definitely a different experience for me. None of my close friends at home or at school are gay (well none of them are open about it if they are). So engaging in regular activities such as going to a movie or a bar with her friends in Boston at first was hard for me, then I realized how I was the one making the situation uneasy. Just because they are attracted to guys doesn't mean they want every guy they see. I also realized they come off as more friendly and understanding, which I don't see as a bad thing at all. Enough with me, back to the lecture. One part of the lecture that really stuck out at me was that being homosexual is not a choice. I liked when Sam asked if we believed that people really thought “hey, I want to become part of a hated group and be scared of people beating me up all the time.” This makes complete sense to me. Why would someone want to become part of a despised group? I never thought of the struggle that people go through hiding their homosexuality. When he told us the story of his friend finding out she was really a guy got me thinking. How common is this occurrence? I feel like this could happen to anyone. It’s not their fault that this happens. How can you explain this happening in the animal kingdom as well? Do you think that monkeys decide to do this or it is in their biological make-up? If it’s found all across nature, why isn’t it more accepted in our society? I learned more in this lecture than any other this semester. My favorite part was the cartoon saying how marriage is only for people who had sex once or want money from the other partner. This is very true. The idea of marriage has changed dramatically over the years and I feel like if someone loves each other they should be given the same rights as anybody else. Gay marriages should be able to adopt children because they are capable of giving orphan children a loving and caring family. They can support children just as well as straight couples and I think it is horrible when people believe their kids are unsafe because they are around a homosexual. These people are not murders! They only love a different way!
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GoatsOnABoat Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 2:35 am
I completely agree with you. And I am glad you brought up the point that maybe you were the only one being uneasy about the trips to Baltimore. I feel like that is a big issue with some people. Being a part of the LGBT community has really allowed me to see this first hand. I came out to my parents a little over a year ago, and shortly after I started telling friends. I thought for sure that nothing would change with most of them, but I was incredibly wrong. Some of my best friends became completely different people when I was hanging out with my girlfriend around them. The strange thing was that I wasn't even flaunting my relationship. We were all hanging out like friends do. I feel like when she found out about me, she just put up this barrier. She was never the same around me after that. And that is how it seems to be with so many people today. I think that more exposure beginning at a younger age would decrease this occurrence.
I'm so excited that Sam's discussion about how homosexuality isn't a choice touched you. I have always felt a natural attraction to females rather than males. I can't even remember the first time it happened. I feel like it has always been there. I have gone through periods in my life where I tried to force those feelings to the back of my mind because I thought it was a phase or I could will myself into being straight. It just doesn't work that way though. I could never feel comfortable in my own skin until I told my parents, and even then it wasn't completely comforting. I knew that admitting my sexual orientation would create a lifelong battle. Even today, I will have tough days where I just wish I could be straight so that I wouldn't have to deal with all this bullshit people throw at me everyday. It would be a life where I was unhappy but at least I wouldn't be seen as some homosexual reject. In the end though, I have the most incredible girlfriend. I have been with her for over a year and couldn't imagine myself with anyone else. And if I give in to people's bullshit, it is just allowing them the pleasure of oppressing my true self, and I can't allow that to happen– to me or anyone else. I plan on helping the America achieve marital rights across all the states. It is my lifetime goal. I will commit the rest of my life to that goal because no one should be able to take away the natural birth right to marry who you love.
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speedygal108 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:27 am
(read "first of all" comment first)
Now in response to why would someone be part of a dispised group, I think that people choosing to belong to those groups is more common than you think. For example, while it may not be on such an extreme level here in America, think about people defending their CHOICE of religion. There are people who are dying for what they have chosen to believe. As a Christain here on campus I definatly do not need to defend my life everyday but on Wednesday, which was Ash Wednesday (a holy day for many Christain groups on which ashes are put on the foreheads of believers as the holy season of Lent leading up to Easter starts off) I was walking around with black ash in a cross formation on my forehead. As I walked around that day I go many double takes, stares, questions and some harsh words. It was my choice though to get the ashes and even my choice to believe in the traditions and faith behind the ashes. I know for a fact people treat me different if I say im a Christain.
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speedygal108 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:29 am
(all in response to cram…read "first of all" first, then "now in response" then "while this is")
While this is a different kind of reaction that some one saying they are gay would produce, it still run along the same line. My parents dont really get my new choice in beliefs, my friends think it's strange…isn't that what a gay person may be experiencing too. And hey maybe im nieve, and dont understand the extent of negative treatment of gay people, but I think it should be noted that its not jsut them that are choosing a difficult path in life. In another case that I bet everyone can relate to, I am pretty sure that many people would not say they like the Willard Preacher or the man outside the HUB, but they are using their freedom to believe in what they want and are living with the reprocussions of people not liking them for it.
I think it all comes down to respect. Lets respect everyone's personal choices, but at the same time lets respect the traditions and sacraments of long ago established religions and keep them the way they were meant.
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speedygal108 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:25 am
First of all I think I should point out that I don't support gay marriage. I think that a union of some sort is ok but a marriage is something that was orginated in the church and so the use of the word in cereomonies that occur in vegas or in a court room, seems wrong to me. I am not a person to discriminate or call people unequal, i just feel that marriage is a holy sacrament and should be kept that way. Also, you said "If someone loves each other they should be given the same rights as anybody else". OK great. But see question number like 5 or something about Sex vs Love. I think there is some issues with the whole Sex vs Love thing and its role in marriage.
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bb215 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
I completely agree with the points this person made about gay marriage. As a Catholic I do not support gay marriage and all of the reasons for why I feel this way originate from my religion. Marriage is defined in the bible as being between a man and a woman. Therefore placing the title of “marriage” on two gay people is inaccurate and going against the bible. Homosexuality is considered a sin in the bible regardless of whether it is a “choice” or not. Sam made an interesting point in the lecture when he brought up the idea that we are all psychically attracted to the same sex. With this being said many would argue that homosexuality is not a choice. Regardless of if this is true or not, people do not have to act on their feelings. For instance the actions of someone who is born mentally ill are not justified just because of their mental illness. If they commit a crime it is still considered a crime and is not “OK” because they felt that way. I believe the same applies to someone who is homosexual. If they believe they are born a homosexual that does not give them the right to act on their feelings. If we are going to accept the actions of someone who believes they are born a homosexual then we should also accept the actions of someone who is born mentally ill. For instance if someone who is born mentally ill kills someone because that is what they felt they needed to do (just like someone who is born a homosexual feels that they need to act on their feelings and get with someone of the same sex) then we should accept both of these and not be hypercritical towards what we choose to accept. With this being said you probably think that I am against homosexual rights. I am not denying that homosexuality does not exist but I am arguing that just because it may exist DOES NOT mean it is right to act on your feelings. I think that people who openly admit that they are gay should have rights because I think that everyone should be treated equally. I do not think that someone who practices being gay should have rights because it is a sin. Thanks to Sam’s lecture he made this point very clear.
I find it interesting how people try to defend homosexuality by saying things such as, “ our culture is ever-changing, adapting and evolving.” How do your words really compare to those written in the bible? Where in the bible does it acknowledge that when times change and the world evolves that the words in the bible should no longer apply? Just because more people accept homosexuality as being “OK” does not make it right.
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thehighlife Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
I went right out in another class of mine and said I was against gay marriage. There is a gay kid in my class who did not take too kindly to that and then another girl told me I was ignorant. Now this is where I have a huge problem with this issue. Because I don't believe in gay marriage, I'm ignorant? Gay people are aloud to look at you like you have 2 heads when you say your against some of their rights but god forbid you look at them like they have two heads when they are walking down the street in pink leather pants with an obviously made up lisp in their speaking….stereotype? It sure is, but it's prevalent. Civil Unions are allowed in most states. These unions provide many of the same benefits that a marriage does…lets not forget people that many marriage benefits and tax breaks from the government are meant to alleviate the burdens of raising children. So then whats the solution, we have to give gay people children now? While studies may show that a child will not turn gay because of having two gay parents, its still possible that they will be more inclined to experiment…and lets not forget about the "making fun of" these adopted kids in school. It's like a fairytale world to believe that they wont be made fun of. As for the religion thing, I was raised Catholic. (I'm not a practicing Catholic) THE STATE has taken over the institution of marriage and then put its liberal ideals into it in an attempt to make available to everybody. Marriage is a sacred religious thing. Here's what should happen to make it fair. The U.S. stops signing off on marriage licenses and they start signing off on civil unions—these would apply to everybody. Vegas needs to stop calling it marriage and so do LGBT. If you want to get married, which by the way is reserved for a man and a woman according to the Bible which is where this comes from ANYWAY, then go to a church and get married. I’m not some sort of monster elitist straight white male…I believe in equal rights, I just don’t believe that everyone should get everything they want. Why does it HAVE to be called marriage for LGBT? I just have a hard time grasping this. I understand its just a word so why cant LGBT understand that what they are really fighting for is the rights and benefits not the word. And guess what, LGBT have rights. They aren’t thrown in jail for being gay. They can be gay in the military now. They can get civil unions in many states..which clearly shows that every state in the future will allow it.
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nickasauras Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
I like this writers view point on the matter. I also liked Sam's lesson on how we can have a heterosexual couple walk in front of us and we think nothing of it. We can have two girls walk in front of us and we sort of look at it differently. But when we have two guys holding hands walking in front of us everyone is shocked. The lesson of this was that many people are not "flaunting" that they are gay as much as other people's perspective and view is out of norms. The same goes for marriage. I think that we look at marriage as a binding contract between a man and women and not a women and a women or man and a man. We need to stop looking at what is normal and what is not normal. Because what is normal to you is different then what is normal to other people. I believe that gay people should have the same rights as everyone else. We are all people and segregating one group based off of sexuality is wrong.
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In class, Sam showed us the religious views of Christianity and Islam but he did not share the views of the Jewish religion. As a Jew, I have always wondered what Judaism thinks about homosexuality.
According to the bible, it states
In Leviticus 18:22, it is written: "And you shall not cohabit with a male as one cohabits with a woman; it is an abomination."
As I was Reform Conservative Jew (a left winged conservative you may say) growing up, recently I researched as to what the Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism viewed homosexuality. I also researched Orthodox, very religious Jews to see all sides.
To begin, Orthodox Jews who are the most religious believe that the Torah forbids homosexual acts not homosexual people. Sexuality as a whole is instinctive and natural. So this brings the question into why does G-d say that heterosexual love is holy and homosexual love is an abomination? It is because heterosexuals can procreate. Judaism and its G-d teach that G-d loves all people. Additionally, the Torah does not condemn homosexual love and urges. According to Rabbi Boteach, "Judaism does not prohibit or in any way look down upon homosexual love. In the eyes of Judaism the love between two men or two women can be as natural as the love between a man and a woman. What it does prohibit is homosexual intercourse."
Now to half of my belief Conservative Judaism. The Committee of Jewish Laws and Standards (CJLS) of the Rabbinical Assembly is the central halakhic authority for the Conservative movement. For a while they did not allow the ordination of openly gay men or women. Then on December 6, 2006, the CJLS completed its deliberation regarding the halakhic status of gay men and lesbians. Regardless of whether a Conservative rabbi and congregation choose to hire homosexual rabbis or perform same-sex commitment ceremonies, they are expected to show respect and sensitivity to all people. All Jews, no matter what their sexual orientation, are welcome into Conservative congregations because G-d teaches us to love all people. So basically it comes down to the congregation’s choice on same sex union ceremonies or the hiring of homosexual Rabbis.
Reform, the complete other side of the spectrum. As a progressive movement, the Reform movement tries to adapt Judaism to today's world. According to many reform Jews, “Many progressive Jews also believe that calling homosexuality "unnatural" is incorrect. They site numerous studies, which have found that homosexuality occurs in nature among every species of mammal and among most other species of animals. Sexually aroused animals will try to mate with the nearest partner. It has been concluded, therefore, that there is an innate drive toward the release of sexual tension, and this release can be accomplished through either homosexual or heterosexual relations”.
Homosexuals are completely accepted in Reform congregations and will hire them as Rabbis as well. Many in the movement even believe that gay and lesbian Jews should be able to be committed as partners in a ceremony.
In conclusion, there is a wide spectrum when it comes to the Jewish religion on beliefs on homosexuality. One thing is the same, the Jewish religion believes that homosexual love is completely acceptable because G-d loves all people. Through my research I completely side with the Reform movement. I am totally supportive of gays getting married and loving whoever they want because in the end love is all that matters.
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iunlearn Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 2:15 am
I need to bring that into the lecture. Just haven't had time to do it. Glad you took the initiative. I'll take it next time.
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Why I believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin. A few verses stating so are as follows. Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." Also in Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them. " In Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Finally the one Sam used in class 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right. Unlike other sins, homosexuality has a severe judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing. Without an awareness of their sinfulness, there will be no repentance and trusting in Jesus. Without Jesus, they will have no forgiveness. Without forgiveness, there is no salvation. But, just because someone is a homosexual does not mean that we cannot love him (or her) or pray for him (her). Thanks to the help of Sam in class we all know that homosexuality is a sin and like any other sin. It needs to be dealt with, like all other sins, the only way possible. It needs to be laid at the cross, repented of, and never done again. As a Christian, I should pray for the salvation of the homosexual the same as I do for any other person in sin. The homosexual is still made in the image of God — even though he is in grave sin. Therefore, I and you both should show him the same dignity as anyone else with whom we come in contact. However, this does not mean that I am supposed to approve of their sin. I don't compromise witnessing for a socially-acceptable opinion that is void of godliness.
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Cxmaddox96 Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
Are you serious right now? I am not trying to be mean but…Wow. This is just ridiculous. You speak of the bible as if it were written by God himself. As if he, after writing it, signed it with his own hand and gave it personally to you. As if he, after giving it to you, said this is the guide to life, follow my every word. Come on now, we both know none of that is true. A human wrote the bible! A human, literally, sat down and wrote this book and called it the bible. Sacred or not it is a book written way back in the day by a human. You are going to follow the every word of a man's ideas of god and how each person should live? A man you never even met…really?
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." You speak of this as if it is a fact that can’t be denied. Calling something (and ANYTHING) an abomination is always an opinion…and that’s the fact. The same goes for Leviticus 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act…” Detestable act… that is an opinion! You are following the opinions a man who decided one day to write them down in a book. Do you get what I am saying of should I keep going?
I grew up learning that "God is love" and that "Love does not hate". God, supposedly, hates gays though. How can a God who is supposed to be love, hate? Can you make since of that, because I can’t? I think it is a bit ridiculous that Christians are encouraged to love but at the same time they follow a God who hates gays…for loving. I could never, in my life, look down upon a man or a women for loving another man or women, no matter what anyone else tells me and I cannot even imagine why anyone else would. What happens if a child loves their homosexual father? Should the child go to hell for loving a homo…even though it is their father? Where does your bible draw the line?
I have honestly told myself, a long time ago, that if I am really going to go to hell for loving someone, then I am going to go the with the biggest smile and the fullest heart. I don’t want to go to a heaven that rejects people for loving another person to their fullest…what kind of place it that anyway?
P.S. – You say you do not like homosexuality because it is a sin, as if you do not sin. I have one word, hypocrisy.
P.P.S. – I am sorry if I have offended you in anyway. That is not my goal. I tend to be a bit passionate about the subject of gay marriage and I may have come off a little aggressive.
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jzr141 Reply:
February 17th, 2010 at 11:46 pm
God is supposed to be a source of love for all, but with the quotes that you have highlighted from the Bible, he is made out to be a discriminating power. Nothing at all about that seems righteous. What the LGBT community does behind closed doors isn’t what this issue is about anymore. Hypothetically, how would it feel if your partner or your soul-mate passed away, and their young child had to go to an orphanage because the process of adoption would be far too lengthy and difficult. Or what if they were in the hospital after suffering a horrible injury and YOU weren’t even allowed to visit them, because you weren’t considered spouse or family. This is about legal rights and the rights to being with someone you love, and the practical benefits that come along with it.
I agree with cxmaddox here. I’m not trying to generalize your opinion or anything, because really that’s what all of this is and I’m just expressing my own. In Romans 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another . . .” the act of homosexuality is deemed as unnatural. But that’s just saying that the desire to love and to participate in romantic acts, whether it be just kissing or having sex, as an unnatural part of life. Everyone in the world has these feelings to some degree, so wouldn’t that make them completely natural? Just because these feelings are directed towards members of the same sex doesn’t make them any different. If you want to follow the words of the Bible and believe that it’s ideas and its pathways are the only ways to live by, then by all means go for it. Just stop and think about how applicable its words, which were written down thousands and thousands of years ago, are in the modern world of today. Things are different and culture is ever-changing, adapting, and evolving, so how can the Bible still hold true through all of its teachings without rubbing people the wrong way?
“But, just because someone is a homosexual does not mean that we cannot love him (or her) or pray for him (her).” Well, pardon the saying, but thank god for that, because with countless people passing judgement without understanding, then the LGBT community definitely needs the rest of our support and love.
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iunlearn Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 2:21 am
I can accept this. But next time you need to put a P.S. at the end and mention not that you "should" pray for homosexuals but that you "do" pray for them AND for all other sinners. And then, of course, actually pray for all of those sinners. This is the way you get out of the trap of having to deal with people yelling at you for any hypocrisy winding its way through your life. I'm not saying it's there (hypocrisy) because I don't know you. But it's just a consideration. Remember, this is why Gary is so cool and enjoyable.
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JessicaPSU Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 12:40 am
Lets quote another historical document while we are at it, shall we? The United States Constitution, First Amendment, establishment clause: “Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion….”, or more commonly known as “separation of church and state”. When it comes down to it, it really does not (or at least it shouldn’t) matter what the Bible says when lawmakers are doing their jobs correctly. While I totally understand that religious institutions have their own laws, it is unconstitutional for our country to be run on the same rulings. The big guy in the sky can send sinners to hell all day long, but the government cannot judge them, and if “all men are created equal” they cannot fail to grant them civil and political rights due to their sexual orientation. Politicians need to put their views aside because they have neither place in government nor politics.
Have we also forgotten about Civil Rights in this country? Not giving any American citizen equal rights because of their gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, national origin, age, etc. is discrimination, plain and simple. Not giving homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals is against the law! I do not understand how we are getting away with this; can someone help me out here?
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mattmcgloin Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 1:47 am
I agree with what you are saying completely. If you are a catholic it is against your religion to be a homosexual. It is just not what Gods intentions were. Men are suppose to be with females and that is the way it is suppose to be. I am against gay marriage because i am sick of this proud to be gay thing that has been going around. If you are gay then you are gay keep it to yourself you do not need to be prancing around trying to prove something. Just do this knowing that you have committed a sin and and you are going against what you believe in.
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tmeister137 Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:25 am
So I can’t figure out if you’re playing devil’s advocate or not, but I will play along. The problem with this entire issue is that one assumes that the bible is the word of God himself. My understanding is that as a Christian one believes that the bible was written by men. Granted they had divine guidance, but still men none the less. Because of this, many of the issues addressed in the bible are contextual to the time period. As such, you can never really apply the passages in the bible literally when dealing with modern day issues. There are reasons to condemn homosexuality in the time period when the bible was written. It cuts back on population growth, which would have been pretty important given the number of battles fought in the Old Testament. Imagine looking at two men with each other the same way a man and a woman are with each other, knowing nothing about biology. Of course you would think that the act was unnatural and condemned by God, you have never seen anything like it. Given new understanding of nature, specific examples of immorality have to be changed. For example, the bible tells the story of Sodom being destroyed by God due to it’s sexual immorality. Now it is basically indisputable that the reason in the bible for its destruction was that the people of the town held no regard for traditional sex. Of course you would think it was wrong. There aren’t any forms of birth control other than family planning (Catholic Roulette as my grandmother calls it). Having sex with many people means many illegitimate children. We have ways to prevent it these days, so our perception of what is acceptable is way different. Now assume that God is omnipotent. I would assume that time has no meaning to him, so changes in the science of men doesn’t affect what he judges as right and wrong. In biblical times, God condemned sexual promiscuity. As such, if he were consistent in his judgment, we would be seeing random frat houses and cheap motels hit with fire and brimstone every night. While this is hilarious and I would totally support it, this obviously doesn’t happen. God’s definition of wrong and right hasn’t changed, only our perception of it as time changes. Assuming that one is Catholic, both John Paul II and Benedict XVI have stated that evolution is basically the truth, and that belief in both it and God are not mutually exclusive. So homosexuality occurs as a means of evolutional population control and increased resource gathering (feeding less families=more total food). The main point here is that you can’t really use such a contextual piece of literature as absolute proof that the divine being one worships condemns such a specific action.
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TorreyLFranklin Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 12:34 am
Dude, you haven't studied the Bible enough to quote those famous verses. If you interpret the Bible literally then you need to know the whole Bible and not just the parts you like or want to believe. The apostle Paul says in Thesslonians 5:21,"Test all things and hold fast to that which is good." If you interpret the Bible literally then what do you have to say about this verse? The Bible is a book about God's love for the world, not a book about sexual orientation. Also if you think the Bible should be interpreted literally then when it says in Deuteronomy 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death. Should that also be taken seriously? Or do you just get to pick and choose the parts of the Bible you like.
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RatherBSleeping Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 2:19 am
So. It’s not my contention that I know a whole hell of a lot about the bible. But I was raised in a church-going Christian family. In fact, my father graduated from Seminary. I’ve memorized my share of bible verses and would say I have a good foundation in the Christian religion. But I cannot advocate for throwing bible quotes at people to attempt to prove a point. Original thought is always more genuine and therefore far more persuasive. But since you’ve already started with the bible-flinging. I think it would be beneficial if you looked at some of my bible quotes. Exodus 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must! grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money." Interesting! My father is 73 years old. He’s recently retired from a public school in inner-city Philadelphia. And? Well, their retirement package isn't so hot. With your knowledge of the bible could you please point me to a verse that would give my father an idea of a fair price for my older sister? Next: Exodus 35:2 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death." I think Barack Obama insists on working on the Sabbath. Does the whole country stone him or is it just the Secret Service’s obligation? The words we use to define our gods and our beliefs are only valuable in that we assign them worth. The bible has been calculatingly misused by the controlling race, class, and gender, to justify every civil rights violation in history. The bible has been trumpeted righteously and with vengeance, on both sides of any war. It’s been called into service to suppress every unwelcome change to conventional principle. The gay rights argument is just the latest in a long history of harmful biblical interpretation by ignorant or intolerant people. Even if the bible does demonize homosexuality (and it doesn’t, unless you’re hanging out with Ted Haggard). This is America. Last I checked, our country is not governed by faith. Freedom of religion should translate into freedom from religion. Opposition to gay rights based on religious interpretation is simply un-American.
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badkarma13 Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 3:03 am
so a book writen by men who hated gays is your guide on this that isn't a very smart move.
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We just have to keep in mind that homosexuality is GREATLY condemned in some religions, and despite all that was said during lecture, the bible still says that it is a sin. I am Catholic, but do not agree with the church’s view on gay rights. I do not necessarily support gay marriage, but rather do not care too much about the subject, and believe that our innate human rights should allow same sex couples to have some sort of legally recognized union. If the Pope was to internationally address the Catholic community, then I am willing to bet the majority of Catholics would re-think, and ultimately change their minds about gay marriage.
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The government should have never let some states legalize gay marriage. Marriage is a sacred thing; God said that himself, it is union of two people from the opposite sex. Gay people should be able to be in a relationship if they choose to; even if I disagree with that, it is their lives. However, they should not be able to get married. We all know that God don’t agree with homosexuality and we all also know that God is the one that make a marriage sacred, so this don’t things can’t go together. If he disagrees with homosexuality, which automatically means that he is against their unions too. Again, God disagree with a lot of things and who am I to judge gay people.
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jsk125 Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
What ever happened to separation of church and state? If your religion tells you that God does not want Gay people to get married, then express this by not allowing it in your church. However, over 1,000 legal rights come with marriage. It is not fair that people do not have these rights even if they have been in a relationship for many years.
If you would rather not allow same-sex couples to be married in your church or by your Priest, Minister, Reverend, Rabbi, etc. then that's fine. But I do not think religion should have a say in hospital visits, property taxes, Social Security, and many other rights that come with marriage. Especially not in a country where there is not a national religion and there is supposed to be separation of church and state.
To keep all of these rights from a certain community because of a personal religion that not everyone in the country adheres to just doesn't seem right to me.
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flippyfloppies Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Exactly. I am neutral on the topic of same-sex marriage, and I was wondering about the separation of church and state as well. I know this country was founded by people with religious ideals, but I always thought under the separation of church and state laws weren't supposed to favor one religion over another. So why should there be laws banning same-sex marriage on the basis of verses in the Bible? I like jsk's point, about maybe having certain churches not marrying gays if they so wish. Personally I think it's not the government's place to have such laws if their only footholds are the beliefs of a few religious people. Not everyone in this country interprets the Bible literally.
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j0hnnytsunami Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 12:39 am
How can government not be involved, be realistic about the situation. a lot of people follow the bible and a lot of its verses, and that fact that gay people want to be part of that is messed up. If gays want the same rights, then fight for that, not for the marriage, as stated millions of times across these past few blog entries, marriage is between two people of the "opposite sex." So again if they want the rights behind a marriage then they should be fight for that right, not the marriage aspect. The church as a right to not give marriages to people that same sex and should not let the state government force them to do so.
I think people still do not want to support gay marriage because of their religious beliefs. Although I think most people that are non supporters think the way they do because they are stubborn. It is the same reason that there are still racists because people are stubborn and do not want to admit that their viewpoint is wrong or unjustified. If more and more people heard this lecture then I think more people that are on the fence about supporting gay marriage would be supportive, yet there will always be some amount of stubborn people that refuse to support it.
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PSUraven Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 4:07 am
You are the kind of person that I simply cannot understand. You stand up for what you believe in, something to be commended, but then proceed to talk down others for holding their own beliefs. Your comments are way out of line. Holding racist views and holding views opposing gay marriage are no where even close to each other. In fact, they’re not even in the same ballpark. Racism involves hating another person solely because of their skin color. You can oppose gay marriage and not hate gay people whatsoever. I fall into this category. I have one gay friend and one bisexual friend. Do I say that to protect myself from possible backlash or to try to establish credibility in this area? No, because I honestly do not care what others think. I will continue to feel the way I do. I can only hope everyone has this attitude, including the gay people out there who choose to fight for marriage rights, despite people (like me) who oppose it. I do not oppose gay marriage because of my Catholic background. I oppose it because I believe the sacrament of matrimony was intended to produce future generations. This cannot happen between two males or between two females without the help of modern sperm donation technology. And I am not going to fall in line with the dozens of people in SOC 119 who sit in Sam’s class as if they are under a spell and just eat up everything he says. Sorry, Sam, but not everyone is a little bisexual as you claim. If you are, and I clearly think you are, that’s fine. But please stop generalizing everything to the point where you say we are all the same. We are not all the same, and that right there is the beauty of life. If we were all the same, life would be bland. And if people did not stand up for whom they are, be it their race, sexual orientation, or religion, then there would be no pride in this world. Going back to my beliefs, I support love first and foremost. If two men love each other, then it is my belief that they should be with each other. The same goes for two women. I would never be kept from the one I love. It is merely my humble opinion that marriage should not be included in these bonds for there is no chance of reproducing. Many agree with me; many do not. And I am happy that there are people who oppose me. It proves that there are people willing to fight for their beliefs rather than simply accept defeat. As to the poster I am responding to, grow up. The fact that you support gay marriage does not make you the best person in the world. Stand up for your beliefs, but refrain from insisting those whom you disagree with are “wrong”.
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Anonymous Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
I agree with you on this distinction.
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Many religions beliefs think its wrong to accept gay marriage into society and in god's world. In the bible, god created both man and woman to unite and marry. The concept of religion against gay marriage is same as concept of racism against a person's outside appearance, biased. People in the world live in old ways, never to adjust to the things of change. Sam's discussion on gay marriage outside of religion makes sense due to the concept that lgbt are simply people with interest that outside public simply does not understand. God in my belief is considered an outstanding god, loving all of his children. Due to anger and discrimation, people think god is a strict god and biased which i simply is false.
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this lecture was pointless and I think and will always believe gay marriage is immoral
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I think homosexuality is an urge some people experience and others do not. Sam pointed out no one would want to be homosexual if they had a choice because you are discriminated against, shunned from your family, and have a disadvantage in the world. If you look at it that way it makes total sense. However (not to compare homosexuality to crack cocaine it is just an example) I feel this theory could be applied to other incidences like crack cocaine. Crack cocaine is highly addictive, detrimental to your health; most people who become addicted usually end up having extreme problems with their family, job, and money. Being addicted to crack cocaine is highly detrimental to your life physically and mentally not in the same way being homosexual is detrimental, but point is both can be detrimental.
So who on earth would want to do crack cocaine, look at all the disadvantages of it. However many people still do crack cocaine. Same with homosexuality, who would want to be homosexual? There are many disadvantages.
Sams argument is homosexuality is not a choice because who would want to choose it. However crack cocaine is a choice but if you asked anyone on earth who was addicted if they rather not be addicted they would say yes. I believe homosexuality is an urge some people experience and others do not. Just like doing drugs, some people have to urge to do them and act on it, some people have the urge and do not, and some just never have the urge. The same principle applies to homosexuality. Some people are just born with the urge to do it, but the sin of acting out on it is the sin in the eyes of the church. Just like alcoholism, some people take a sip of beer and never have the urge to get drunk and some people take a sip and need more. So some people have to urge to sin and others do not. Whether or not one acts out on it is the decided factor. Some people have it tougher than others, more obstacles like Sam talked about. For some people if they never did alcohol, drugs, or premarital sex in their life it is not big deal, others live for those three things. It is a complex mix of how you were raised, your genetic makeup, and your independent will power and decision making.
All in all I feel a hint of homosexuality is a choice, much like partaking in premarital sex or getting drunk. Some people just have much stronger urges than others. However I honestly feel if homosexuality is 100% biological than there is no way it can be a sin.
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PamBeesley Reply:
February 19th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
I agree with a lot of the points you made in your post here. I also thought it was interesting and agreed when Sam pointed out that many people know that they're gay or lesbian at a very young age. And in many instances you can tell that people are gay or lesbian early on. Why would they want to choose that lifestyle? So many people think that being homosexual is immoral and discriminate against for their sexual preferences. I think you make a great point about crack users. However, I do not agree that homosexuality is a choice at all. I have many gay and lesbian friends and they all say that they didn't choose to be gay. One friend is actually one of my best friends and he came out when he was about 15 and lost a lot of his friends. His family put him in therapy to try to get his homosexuality to go away. His parents told him he had to be straight or he had to move out of the house. He chose to move out. Why would someone choose to be shunned by their family and so many of their friends?
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Part 1: First, I would like to say that I did not believe this was "the best lecture ever". In fact, and I am not trying to be rude or disrespectful, it seems that every lecture is the new best lecture except for all of the other lectures. Also, I am curious how this lecture topic ties in with the the course title, race relations. I just do not see the connection between the topic of LBGT and race.
As far as looking at homosexuality from a religious perspective I agree and disagree with many of the things already posted. As a Jew, I believe that homosexual acts are wrong because that is what God said. And it is simply a matter of faith. I cannot prove or disprove God's existence, and thus definitevely prove or disprove His "word". This is actually good thing because being able to prove the existence of God will effectively eliminate de facto freedom of choice, but that is not the real issue here. Alot of people seem to be hung up on the idea that condemning homosexuality from a religious standpoint is especially hypocryitc because we all comitt sins.
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kap5271 Reply:
February 18th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
To the statement, "I just do not see the connection between the topic of LGBT and race."
Obviously those who are LGBT are often discriminated against. Many spend their whole lives either dealing with that hate, or trying to hide their true identity because they think people will not accept them for who they truly are. Similarly, people of color have always been discriminated against. However, people of color cannot hide their identity; they have to deal with it. I think Sam just wanted to make a connection from one group who is discriminated against to another. I think he wants people to realize how similar we all really are and maybe get rid of some of the hatred in this world.
Also, sometimes professors just like to share some insight on important matters. Whether you believe it or not, that class on Tuesday forever changed the lives of at least a few people.
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TorreyLFranklin Reply:
February 20th, 2010 at 12:41 am
Buddy, if you don't like the lectures then get the fuck out. As a Jew you should know that no Jew in the Bible ever condemned homosexuality, not even Jesus. I agree with you that we all do commit sins so we need to stop being so critical of gays and lesbians. It is crazy to me that people care so much about other peoples business and personal lives. If someone is gay I don't care be gay do what you have to do just don't get in my business about my personal life. People need to relax and live their own lives and stop being so concerned with how their friends or neighbors are living. We all have our vices, people need to accept that and move on.
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Part 2: This is true, but it is true of everything. No one is perfect, and no one pretends that their perfect. So there is nothing unique, from a religious standpoint, in committing one sin, be it homosexuality or theft, not that the two are on the same level, and committing another sin be it pre-marital marriage or murder, again not that the two are on the same level. So the problem only arises when one assumes that they are perfect and commit no sins yet condemn other people's sins. From a religious standpoint we should all strive, to minimize sin, however unattainable that may be because we are all only human.
As for gay marriage, I have no issue with two people of the same sex coming together in some sort of union, recieving benefits, and attaining the status of married couples; however, I do not believe it should be called marriage. It can be called egairram or kerplak or a union or anything else. But marriage, as a traditional institution with roots in religion, is defined as a union between a man and a woman. And I am not prepared to change this definition. Likewise, the union of a man and woman cannot be called egairram or kerplak because a man and a woman together is a marriage.
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Part 3: This is simply the culture and traditions of our society and I do not see that it should change. Another issue, I think, is we allow unions for men and women, and people of the same sex. What about for polygamists? What if I really love five other women who all love eachother and me. Who is to say that we should be denied a union? What if I love my pet goat. I mean I really love it and want to spend the rest of my life with my goat, LeRoy, should there be some sort of institutiuon to recognize us? And what if I want to marry my sister because we truly love eachother, who is to say I cannot marry her. Now I am not saying these things should be or shouldn't be allowed. It is a tough issue and I do not have a concrete opinion, yet. But it is certaintly something to think about.
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I agree 100% with this question, especially after the class that we just had on Tuesday. For those who are against gay marriages, why why why? The marriage between two other people who you most likely do not know is none of your damn business! They love each other the same way that you love your husband, wife, girlfriend or boyfriend. Why would you want to interfere with that? I just do not understand why straight people would care, because the marriage between two other people who are in love does not involve them whatsoever. You can go ahead and try to bring religion into this, but I personally look at your "beliefs" that condemn gays the same way that you look at gay marriages. You think it is disgusting and wrong. I think the fact that you want to interfere with the lives of other people in a negative way is disgusting and wrong.
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Although today’s lecture brought about many good points, I can still understand why people would not support gay marriage IF it were only for religious reasons. I do not agree with people who do not support gay marriage, but if it goes against someone’s beliefs about god and how god wants life I can understand. However, I do not think that there should be anything about homosexuality in any type of religious bible. There is nothing wrong with people who are gay. In fact, I can definitely say that I know a gay married couple (that truly loves one another) that is raising their children much better than many messed up families with parents who hate each other.
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After Tuesday’s lecture, I too do not understand how somebody can walk out of the classroom with the same beliefs they walked in with. It really is hard for me to accept people’s thinking that involve the bible so much in politics and what should be allowed in our government. What ever happened between the separation of church and state? Obviously our government has a problem separating these two things to begin with, but the topic of gay marriage is so blatantly dealing with religion, it is a shame that these discussions can take place when dealing with law. I’m Jewish, and in that way I guess some Christians would call me a sinner too right? Why am I allowed to get married if marriage is something so sacred? Why stop at just segregating same sex marriage? Where is this line drawn? What makes certain sins right and other sins wrong? People who aren’t even religious get married, it is in no way sacred or religious for these people, should this even be allowed? Why do the super religious care so much about what other people are doing with their lives? I understand completely that this is not only Christians, but many other religions, including Judaism, which restricts gay marriage, I just do not understand why it is brought into our government. Marriage today is all about law, people get married for the right to share taxes, wealth, among other things. I guess what I don’t understand is why people outside of the marriage are allowed to judge and tell citizens of the United States what they can and can’t do. In this aspect, it is similar to the issue of abortion. We are supposively living in a “free” country, however, the government is trying to restrict what we do in our private lives. How can our government tell us who it is acceptable to love? We will never become more accepting of people who are different from us in society, unless our government takes a step forward. This is a two way street, societal beliefs and the government must evolve together in becoming more accepting of different kinds of people.
It just seems ridiculous to me that people can say that our country gives equal rights and opportunities when there are laws instated which are preventing just that. Why do we even pretend that we separate church from our government if it is everywhere in these debates? We need to not only stand up against the issues on hand but also on the bigger picture. When are the non-religious or non-Christians going to be able to stop having to stand up for themselves against the church in our country?
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Sam’s lecture brought out amazing points about gay marriage rights. I completely think that gay people should have the same rights as straight people. However, there are religious people out there who follow every teaching and idea in their religion. A lot of people live to serve their religion. They feel their sole purpose of life is to be a disciple of their scripture. A lot of these religions don’t agree with gay marriage or with being gay at all. If that’s part of their religion and their extremely devout, chances are their not going to change their opinions. We don’t understand the exact reasoning behind their beliefs or how it affects their day-to-day life. We just understand that it’s part of their religion and their following their teachings.
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Honestly, I ask myself this question too. I don't understand how even religious people can be so anti homosexuals. Okay, yeah I understand that it is against their religion, but in most religions, you should not judge other people. We all sin, everyone lies and "in the eyes of God" these things are all similar, whether you kill, steal, lie, are homosexual, or whatever. It's just annoying that people honestly think that just because they believe solely in their religion, that they are completely one hundred percent correct. Can we be a little more open minded please? Everyone lives by these ridiculous social standards and you can't truly be happy unless you rip away from the societal strings; at least as much as possible. Anyone and everyone has the right to be whatever religion they want, and have their own morals, so why can't homosexuals believe that it is okay to be homosexual? What if the world decided that it just wasn't okay to be Catholic, or to have brown hair, or to go to the mall, or to have sex with people of the opposite sex. It's like a bunch of religious Hitler's running around preaching what is right, when I'm sorry I didn't know that WE ARE ALL HUMAN; and equal. So get over yourself, you homophobic person, whoever you are, and walk into reality.
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I completely agree with this question. I also agree with the many other people who responded to this blog that religion is a key reason why individuals do not believe in gay marriage. I don't understand this though because many of those who cite religion as a reason against gay marriage, do other things that religion prevents them from doing anyway. People act like the love between gay and lesbian couples is some kind of crazy ludicrous idea. Why should these people be judged because they love someone of the same sex? They love in the same way that heterosexual couples do, it's just between two people of the same sex. I just don't get it.
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I wholeheartedly believe with just about everything Sam said in class on Tuesday about gay marriage. For me this class was all about things many of us deny or refuse to believe. Many of us are all bisexual to some degree. And most importantly, it is absolutely ridiculous to not believe in gay marriage. I have a question for all of you who use religion as a reason for not supporting gay marriage. Have you ever stolen, coveted something, lied, gotten drunk, committed adultery, or had sex? If the answer to any of those is yes, than you are a complete HYPOCRITE. As Sam said, the Bible forbids all of these actions and practices equally. So why is the practice of homosexuality any worse? Obviously divorce and unhappy marriages are common in this country. Those are often between heterosexual couples. Why do they have the right to be together in an unhappy marriage while two people who truly love one another cannot be together? Again and again in the Bible, God encourages us to love and accept one another, no matter what. It should be obvious that homosexuality is not a choice. Why would anyone choose to be part of group of people who are disrespected and abused for their way of life?
I was baptized and confirmed as a Catholic. At Sunday School once a week my teachers would read passages from the bible, tell me rules, and make me memorize prayers. I often struggled to fully comprehend the significance of what I was being told. From a young age I was being forced to think a certain way and believe certain things without actually understanding what it meant. Essentially I was being brainwashed. I think this happens to many people who are taught to believe certain things at a young age. Slowly, over time we lose the capacity to think for ourselves. My family was never completely in love with the monotonous Catholic services and ways, so around the time I was 15 we began to attend a Methodist church. The Sunday School at the Methodist church completely transformed my view of religion. I went from hating those once a week meetings to looking forward to them. The leaders at the Methodist church encouraged me to love and accept other people and, most importantly, think for myself. I was allowed to form some of my own opinions about the Bible and religion in general. I learned to love going to church, seeing the people I was with, and praising God.
Now, I do not intend to criticize a certain religion and praise another. I simply want to make the point that too many people are brainwashed into thinking a certain way. Particular cultures socialize us to think a certain way. An important lesson to take away from this might be the importance of love and acceptance. For me, religion is about mostly about love and acceptance. Therefore, it makes utterly no sense why two people who love one another cannot be accepted. If more people could think for themselves, instead of what teachers tell them the Bible says, maybe we wouldn't have so many problems in the this world.
So maybe if you are one of those people who didn't really agree with Sam on Tuesday, maybe you just need to give it a chance. If you came in with the idea that gay marriage is wrong, maybe you just need to open up a little bit. Try really thinking about the matter for yourself, rather than just believing something that someone else told you to believe. To those of you who refuse to budge and stand completely against gay marriage, please stop being hypocrites. It's really not helping anyone. In the end, I agree with kar's earlier post, “You think it is disgusting and wrong. I think the fact that you want to interfere with the lives of other people in a negative way is disgusting and wrong.”
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I feel as though sitting through the lecture on Tuesday should have opened up everybody’s eyes to something they were not aware of before. I know for a fact that it really made me think deeply about the LGBT issues we discussed, and I became aware of many aspects of it. One thing that helped was when Dr. Richards showed us the slide with the different types of married couples and their motives. For example, there were the gold diggers, big gaps in ages, and other marriages based on the wrong reasons. If your sex is the only factor that allows you to get married, I think there is something wrong with society. If two gay people are actually very happy together and have a supportive and loving relationship, they should be given the rights to be together in marriage. People should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as they are not harming others. How can the marriage of two people of the same sex be harmful to others? Just like we learned in class, those people who disagree with homosexuality due to religious reasons should think before they say anything. I am sure they have committed other sins, especially in the categories of fornication and drunkenness and covetousness. Even if they have not actually committed these sins, they should treat homosexuality just like any other sin. If they lobby against homosexual marriages, they should do the same when it comes to drinking and having sex. If they do not do that, they are just being hypocrites. While nobody wants to believe they are hypocrites, they should realize that they are when they speak out against homosexual marriages but not drunkenness. Something else that bothers me is when straight people make the legislation that denies gay marriage. They do not care about the feelings of gay people in that situation because they, as heterosexuals, can marry people of the opposite sex. Maybe they should be told they cannot marry who they love, and we would see how different the legislation would be. Lastly, I really liked how Dr. Richards compared gay people to people of color. I believe that homosexuality is mainly genetic, just like the color of somebody’s skin. Therefore, why should people hide their homosexuality if they should not hide the color of their skin? It is so natural and unavoidable. Sure, society is not fully comfortable with open homosexuality, but until it becomes more prevalent, how can that change? People seem to have a natural tendency to debate and emphasize many issues that surround our society. It is as if people feed off of whatever bit of issue they can get and then blow it up to feed their natural drive to debate. What I love to see, though, is people who have nothing to do with the issue giving their input and expecting everyone to listen to it. This goes along with the heterosexuals who are against gay marriages and make the legislations and hold rallies to fight it.
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Religion is the main answer to this question. Especially with the older population. Same sex relationships were very uncommon a while back, so older generations do not see the reason to homosexual relationships. They also believe that a marriage is meant to produce children. Religion plays a huge part in the debate a same sex marriage because some people believe gay marriage is a sin. Though nobody can argue God's reasoning, I think it is more important that people are spreading his love around. No matter who we love, God would never be mad. The Bible was written a long time ago and times have changed. I don't think should be allowed to revise the Bible, but we should be able to add new experiences and realize that God would never punish.
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One important concept to maintain is that, yes the lecture presented many great points in favor of LGBT marriage, however we have only been formally presented, so to speak, with one side of the argument. There is no doubt in my mind that a lecture presenting the opposing side of this argument would also stir up some emotion and have many people signing their name on that particular side. Case in point is that although the points made were logical, it is essential to incorporate examples from both sides of this argument before one can truly determine their opinion. To do so prematurely would be irrational.
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I agree that it is ridiculous to not allow gay couples a certified union, but I still do not believe that it should be called a marriage. Allow me to begin by saying I am not religious, and I do not believe gay marriage to be a sin, but I still do not think that a union between two men or a union between two women should be called a marriage. Marriage was traditionally a purely religious ceremony, and then the state adopted marriage and further solidifies the union, but since the beginning of our country, marriage has shifted from purely church and state to society. The term, and the idea, marriage has grown to mean a union between to men and two women. The traditional fairytale of the very young girl planning out her wedding with her friends is an example of what marriage represents. An equal union would be the only logical answer. It may not be fair, because of the whole separate but equal argument, but thats just the way the cookie crumbles. I would imagine that the reason members of the LGBT community want marriage, as opposed to a separate but equal union, is because of what marriage represents to society. They want to be the same, and share the same union. However, by definition, marriage is between a man and a woman. No matter how you look at it, no matter which way you slice it, the church originated marriage. And by the churches definition, marriage is between a man and a woman. Although society has adapted the term, the power still lies with the church. It is not up to us to decide what the church should say. That is being truly conservative. The church is its own establishment. That establishment created marriage. Nobody can tell them to change, or tell them why they are wrong. For instance, say that I am selling red t shirts to everyone who drives a red car. Then, someone driving a blue car comes up to me. I am willing to sell them a blue t shirt, but not a red t shirt, because it is my business. They are not exactly the same, but that is just the way my business is run. It is equal. I am not discriminating. Now replace me with the church, red t shirts with marriage, and blue t shirts with a separate but equal union. That system would work well, and nobody can argue that it is not fair to members of the LGBT community. If you want to argue that separate but equal is not truly equal, fine, but you have to remember that it is still the churches call, and who are we to decide what the church, which is its own organization, should sanctify?
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The subject of gay marriage vs love will always be one that will never be 100 percent agreed upon. I am catholic and I have always been brought up in the church, attending every Sunday. Now, for me to say that I truly follow all the things that I am supposed to as a Catholic, I do not. We are all sinners and that is the way it was supposed to be. I have sinned and broken many of the commandments but at the same time there are certain ones that I will never fall to. One being gay marriage. I have no problem with gay or lesbian people, I have a problem with the idea of calling their "marriage" a marriage. I believe the word marriage was made in the church and it should always stay that way. Some people argue that they are not homosexual and do not have a religion but will one day call their "marriage" a marriage. If this means we need to call two people coming together in love wanting to spend the rest of their lives together something different for non religious, religious and homosexual people then I believe that is what should be done. God created Adam and Eve to reproduce and create future life and followers of God. If two men and two women were supposed to be together then why are our reproductive organs made to fit the opposite sex? Matrimony was created in the church and should remain in the church. My roommates were a little disturbed that even after the lecture I disagreed with Sam on the subject of LGBT people, mainly just gay marriage. No offense to Sam, but we are not the same people and we all have the right to believe what we want and for you to say we are "wrong" is wrong of you. He made good points but I am strongly associated with my church and will continue to believe the things I have and always will be taught. I do not disagree that two women or two men can love each other but as I said before the word marriage was made in the church and therefore should not allow gay or lesbian people to marry. The same way people "just can't believe people do not agree with gay marriage" is the same way us who believe it is wrong, disagree. What makes what the LGBT community/ believers/ supporters right in what they believe and the people who do not agree wrong? It doesn't. No matter how you look at it, the word marriage was made for a man and a women and it should continue to stay that way for all time. Call it something else and it wouldn't create as much controversy and arguments. Again, I do not have a problem AT ALL with people who choose to love another man or another women. That is there right to decide and their will but I disagree that they should be able to get "married." If gay marriages become legalized then the meaning of marriage for many religious people will not have the same values.
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Now I’m for gay marriage and those people should have all the rights that marriage should allow but hey this is what some people think. When you enter into a marriage you do it because you love each other not for the tax breaks right. You get married because you want to have children and grown as a family. Well there it is other than the fact that two people of the same sex can’t have children and be a real family it make no sense to say that they are really married and can procreate. Yeah that is a little Christian right wing but the 80’s were Christian right wing. Older people don’t want to hear this bull shit that gays are equal they didn’t grow up that why. Don’t worry they will all be dead one day and gays will freely marry each other and everyone will be the same and the world will be in peace.
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I am someone that still is not on one side of the fence or the other. I mean I am not homophobic and in fact I have one “friend” that is gay. I put friend in quotes only because we were more of acquaintances than friends, for that he played on my high school volleyball team with me. The reason can’t be directly pin pointed for why some people remain against gay marriage, and when I say gay I mean both lesbian and gay marriages. Well I was never really in support of it because a marriage is simple, the definition of a marriage. Dictionary.com says a marriage is “–noun, the social institution under which a MAN and WOMAN establish their decision to live as a husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.” A marriage is something that is in between a male and a female. Not a male and male, or not a female and female. I believe that gays should have their own thing, that doesn’t have to be much different but the definition of that word, whatever it is will be, “–noun, the social institution under which a MAN and MAN or WOMAN and WOMAN establish their decision to live as a husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.” That being said, I do believe that gays are deserving of equal rights in society and should be socially acceptable. However, there is one right that I am against, which sounds wrong, but I do not believe gay couples should be able to adopt children. And if gay marriage was accepted this would only promote gay couples adopting children. I feel like I would not be anything close to what I am today if I was only raised by two moms or two dads. They each can provide such a contrasting parental raising experiences and lessons.
Another big reason why many people do not support the gay marriage is because of their religious views. However, I am not one to use this as a reason because this usually leads to the people that pick and choice their sins, hypocrites. And really, I believe if the religious followers had the persuasion of their religion lifted from their shoulders, I’d bet they would change their minds about gay marriage.
During Tuesday’s lecture Sam pointed out the fact that other animals participate in homosexuality, and really more than I ever thought did. And in their animal communities, this isn’t looked down upon, at least to our knowledge. Relating this to the topic at hand, if humans weren’t cursed with a conscience we wouldn’t think anything of any homosexual acts. But we are cursed, so it isn’t accepted by everyone. And these people that do not accept it will not support gay marriage. These were just a few of reasons some people would not support gay marriage.
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To answer your question, I think that it is very well possible to still believe that gay marriage is wrong after taking this class. Why? Although I am a firm believer in gay rights and marriage, there are a number of people in this class that have grown up in different backgrounds and with different values that have become a part of their entire being. These values against gay marriage have become a part of their mold and being. It is hard to completely change the mindset of people that have been taught one way for so long in their life. If anything, I feel this class definitely opens one’s eyes to the different perspective, but to change someone’s life and thought structure is very difficult to make happen.
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First off, I have to say, that I greatly enjoyed Sam’s lecture on LGBT issues. I learned a lot and it opened my eyes to things that I might not have thought about prior to that lecture. But with that said, I still do not agree with the gay lifestyle. Personally, I am a Christian, and as stated in previous posts, there are numerous Bible verses within our religion that simply states, homosexuality is wrong. But, that does mean that I don’t think it’s OK for people to be gay. I’m sure you’re thinking, “What the hell is this person talking about, that makes no sense,” but hear me out.
As a Christian, I accepted Christ into my heart and fully believe the things of the Bible. Yes, they are written from people, but they are God-inspired. Although there are various Bible verses talking about how perverse a gay lifestyle is, it never once says that we should condemn, ridicule and put down these people. I have many gay friends, and I love each and every one of them. I would personally never be gay, but I would also never tell them that they are wrong in being gay themselves. God makes people all differently, straight, gay, bi or transgendered. It is our own choice or lot in life to be who we are and while I, as a Christian am not gay, I will never, never put anyone that is gay down for their life or beliefs.
I also completely agree with a separation between church and state- hence why I don’t have a problem with gay marriage. Even if people believe that marriage is an institution, consecrated by God, sometimes it simply isn’t. You can be technically married without having to go into a church. Gay people should be allowed the same rights that their fellow Americans are allowed as well. Gay people are still sons and daughters of God, whether other Christians like it or not, they should be treated as such as well.
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I think it is obvious why people wouldn't support gay marriage. Plain and simple, there are a lot of stupid, crazy people in this world. I probably shouldn't call people stupid for believing in a certain belief but, what the hell, I think they are. This is a country founded by and filled with religious fanatics. It's really an entire world filled with religious freaks and those people can be as stubborn as a mule when it comes to sticking by their guns and what they are told by their religion. Don't quote me word for word on this but to my knowledge the bible says marriage is a sanction between man and wife. Therefore, the reason why so many people disagree with gay marriage is because they believe this is violating that sanctity. The thing we don't realize going to a school filled with so many eighteen to twenty-two year olds is that Penn State isn't a representation of the entire country. Outside of Penn State and the small liberal communities or big urban cities most of us come from, the rest of the United States of America is filled with bible-thumping religious fanatics. They make up the majority of this country. How else do you explain an idiot like George W. Bush being elected president … twice! That is because most people are blind to being able to think for themselves and just go by whatever the Bible says. These aren't all Christians, these are simply the ones who are fanatical in the Bible belt of America. The average Christian that I meet (I'm Jewish) may be really religious and go to church, but for the most part they are open-minded and hip with the 21st century and two dudes or chicks getting married. That isn't how most people are though. Most of those people aren't going to college or at least aren't going to a school like Penn State. This isn't just America though and not just about gay marriage. There are religious fanatics all over the world who listen to their book of worship without any questions asked. The terrorist attack of September 11th is a prime example. It was for religious reasons and they thought they were fulfilling their religious destinies. I'm not comparing being against Gay Marriage and killing thousands of people but in a way I am. It is simply proof that a lot of people, no matter how crazy it might seem to fly a plane into a building or how crazy it is to be against two people in love getting married, will do anything their religion says. And in this situation, their religion says shame on two men or women ruining the sanctity of marriage. Crazy world we live in, right?
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What I don't understand is if one has these beliefs that gays cannot get married, because it is against their religion, then why do people tolerate marriages under other religions. In both cases you think the other people are wrong, and because they do not accept your religion they will burn in hell for all eternity. So why does one bother you more than the other? Can't you people just do what you always do when people don't believe the same things you do. Just take solace in knowing that no matter what happens to everyone else, you still will have your spot in heaven. Maybe I'm missing the mark. Maybe you don't want to see gay marriage happen because you think by denying them that, you are saving their souls from damnation. But if that were true, wouldn't you also be protesting every other church and every other practice that isn't yours. Just a thought.
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I think Sam made a really good point in Tuesday’s class concerning this. Many people are cool with the idea of allowing gay couples to unify. However, a lot of people have a problem with calling it marriage. Marriage, as Sam said, is where church and state slightly overlap. Although the sacrament of marriage is deemed as a religious-like ceremony, the state must sign off on it as well. Personally, if I could get “unioned” with my significant other with all the benefits of an actual marriage, then that would be fine with me. Some diehard gays out there may demand equality in the form of actual marriage, but as long as I’m legally with the person I want to be with, I can care less what you call it.
I’d also like to introduce another topic concerning this: what about the economic benefit of legalizing gay marriage? I can’t remember the exact number, but I believe Sam gave the class a 6 figure number of how many gay couples there are in the United States. If even a fraction of them were able to get married, all the money used to prepare the wedding services could potentially boost our economy. Any other thoughts on this?
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I think that Sam made a great argument at class for gay marriage but people who do not believe in it are always going to have their reasons to be against gay marriage. There are certain people you can sway, but the majority of extreme right-wing will not change their stance. They continuously go back to the religion issue and that remains their only defense. To them marriage is a religious institution defined by the church as being between a man or a woman and until the wording in the bible is changed, I don’t think these people will change their minds.
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I would like to begin by saying that I am not religious at all. I do not believe in the church or anything like that. However, I do believe that gays and lesbians should be able to marry and call it marriage. I know the word marriage and the church originated all of that stuff, but I mean its not the 1500s anymore. It is 2010 and the gays and lesbians should be allowed to marry one another and call it a marriage. Now I believe that being homosexual is not a choice, you are born with urges and those urges ultimately determine whether or not you like the opposite sex or the same sex. You cannot choose whom you like and what sex you like, it just happens. Going back to gay marriages though, gays and lesbians are people and have their rights. If you are not going to allow them to marry and call it marriage not a union, then what is the United States really about? United States represents a FREE country and has been accustomed to change in its history. So why not approve of gay marriage? Especially after the lecture that we had, I see no reason why it should not get approved.
Going to the question at hand, I would like to say that people feel that gay marriage is wrong because traditionally a marriage is between a man and a woman. Marriage is apparently something between a man and a woman so that they can reproduce which one another and start a family. I do not see a problem with having two males or two females being married and then starting a family on their own. They can adopt children and start a family like that. This whole traditional marriage between a male and a female argument is nonsense. At one point in the United States history it was tradition to have a white president, however in 2008 we elected a president who was not white and broke this tradition. What I am trying to say is that some traditions are made to be broken and we do not need to follow all of them. I do support gay marriage, if two males or two females want to get married they can do it. I see no problems with that. You cannot tell someone not to marry someone else because of his or her sexuality. If two people love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together they should be allowed to get marry and go through all the things that straight couples go through. I do not know that all gay marriages will succeed, which they probably will not, but at least give them the opportunity to experience something with their significant other.
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I have the same question after Tuesday's class. Like Sam said, who are we to tell someone who they can and cannot love? As much as some of us wish we could, we cannot help who we love. Love is a beautiful emotion and if you are lucky enough to have a happy, healthy, loving relationship, why should anyone condemn you? I understand that people condemn gay marriage because of the way they interpret the Bible. But that's what it comes down to- interpreting. People have different opinions of every passage in the Bible and no one is in the position to say who is right or wrong. But in the end, would God want us discriminating against people whose only crime they've committed is loving someone they can't help loving?
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I am reading some of these comments and some people are still arguing that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage should be banned because "God intended marriage to be a sacred thing between a man and a woman." I would like to start off by saying that no one knows what God says or thinks, everything written in the Bible was written by humans, this is why we have a separation of church and state, so that ignorant people can not run around making laws based on what they think God wants. I don't understand how people who were in class on Tuesday can still argue that being homosexual is a sin when I think Sam clearly demonstrated that people are born that way. Gay people would not go through all they go through and be labeled as outcasts as a choice. The Bible is a great book with a lot of great messages about how people should live their lives, but I think its perspective about homosexuality is wrong. Anything that one writes down will have some sort of bias, and I am sure that the Biblical writers had a bias towards homosexuality because of the society in which they lived in. If a gay person is "living in sin" because he/she is gay, than what are they supposed to do? You can't just switch over and start becoming attracted to another gender. Obviously, some men in prison do sexual things to other men, but this is because they are under different circumstances and don't have a choice and they have been hurt psychologically. If someone told me I should become attracted to men tomorrow, I would tell them that's impossible, I grew up attracted to females and that is just the way I am. If people choose to be gay, than what about those people who get shunned by their parents when they come out of the closet? What about gay people who live in societies in the world where homosexuality is a crime and subject to severe punishment? I know that if I were a gay person growing up in a place like Texas or Alabama I would be scared to walk around. I guess some people think gays will rot in hell just because of the way they were born.
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It is hard for me to see how anyone could rationally be against gay marriage. If you are in love with someone, no one should be able to stand in your way. I may have felt differently about gay marriage, up until I entered college. I went to Catholic school my entire life, and even in high school I never came across any act of homosexuality. There were always gay jokes, and thing like that, but I never witnessed any act of homosexuality. I never had an opinion on the subject mainly because it had just never been addressed at home, in school, with my friends, etc. That all changed however, when my roommate in college came out to me. We had been friends in high school, and decided to room together freshmen year. He had a relatively serious girlfriend throughout his senior year, so any thought of him being gay never really crossed my mind. I just thought he was a some-what flamboyant straight dude. After they broke up and I started living with him, his sexual preference became kind of clear. He never hooked up with any girls, and it seemed like women were always just friends with him. Needless to say, it wasn’t a surprised when he told me that he was gay. It honestly did not change our relationship at all, but I do believe that our friendship has positively shaped who I am. If we had never become friends, and never had lived together then I might think differently than I do now about gay marriage. I want him to be happy. That’s all that matters to me, so it honestly is upsetting to me when I think about other people trying to prevent him from being with the person he loves.
He is going to face enough problems in his lifetime, so for that one other issue (gay marriage), to actually be an issue is a major hurdle for him to overcome. He is with a serious boyfriend at the moment. This is actually their second stint together. I like his boyfriend. He’s a cool dude, but regardless all that matters is what my friend thinks of him. My roommate and I are actually close enough to talk about our issues, even though I am straight and he is gay. I talk freely about my feelings towards women, and he sometimes opens up about his relationship problems. The kid is going to face enough trials and tribulations throughout his life, so why does being with the one he loves have to be another one of them? His new year’s resolution is to tell his parents that he is gay. I can’t even imagine how tough that is going to be for him. Then again, I also can’t imagine all of the negativity he may face when trying to be with the one he loves.
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To all the people who want to argue "marriage is a sacred institution" and "marriage was intended by God for blah blah blah," I think you should look a the history of marriage and maybe take Soc 030 so you can learn some thing. Marriage in the form we know it has really only been around for 200 years. The way we know it of course, is between a man and a woman who are in love and who decide for romantic reasons that they want to become unified. Before this though, marriage was a financial or political maneuver. People would marry to make connections with another family to gain power or political clout, people would marry for land or for livestock. People got married first for whatever reason, and then learned to live with the person whom they were married to. Marriage was not always about a man and a woman who are in love who want to be with each other forever. I also don't understand how you can argue that marriage is "sacred" when the divorce rate is 50%. Those who are allowed to marry apparently aren't treating it as sacred. The Christian Church and other religions have their own beliefs about marriage, but that needs to stay separate from the state and government.
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This class was definitely my favorite thus far because I did not really know what to expect when I first walked in. I was never against gay marriage, although my religion disapproves of it, but after sitting through the class and hearing Sam lecture, I feel more strongly about the issue and feel more passionate about my standpoint on the issue. What Sam said in class was exactly correct. Hypocrisy is a big problem when it comes to the religious argument of gay marriage. So many people against gay marriage have gone against the words of the Bible in so many ways. No one is perfect. So to sit back and say that two gay people cannot be married for religious reasons is unfair.
Another issue is that marriage is supposed to be for life. The person you marry is the person you are supposed to be with forever. If the sacrament of matrimony is so sanctified, then why is it that fifty percent of marriages are ending in divorce? Most divorces are probably because of one or both spouses having an affair, something clearly stated in the Ten Commandments. That is not following the Bible or the word of God either. Gay people have to go through so much more to even find a partner, to be open with people about their sexuality and hope to be accepted for it, to be together under scrutiny. They endure so much more than heterosexual couples have to, making their bond and relationship stronger. They would covet being married more than a heterosexual couple would. The chances of them staying together after marriage is much more likely, so why not?
God created people the way he wanted them to be. If they are gay, then that is the way God chose them to be. They should not be persecuted or treated as lepers because of whom they are attracted to or in love with and should not be denied marriage. A child does not choose to be gay, and to deny them the same things as their peers, such as marriage, would be unfair. It was not their choice. It was how they were born.
Maybe the issue lies in the word itself; marriage. Maybe the definition of the word should be altered to include all unions between any two people instead of it being defined as a religious ceremony to unite a man and woman as husband and wife. Then would people have a problem with it? I feel like the biggest argument against gay marriage is the religious factor.
Seeing as how the corporate world has been so accepting of the homosexual community, I feel as though in the future, gay couples will be able to get married. Unless you are a perfect person and follow the Bible to the “T”, I don’t see how you can still be against gay marriage.
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I think that once people see a certain way, especially on a topic such as this, it’s hard to make them change the way they feel. It’s like if you told a racist all the bad things about racism, they would most likely still be racist. I wish that people would change their minds, though. Love is love. It shouldn’t matter what sex someone chooses to love. That’s their choice and it shouldn’t matter to anyone but them. But once someone has made their mind up about something, they are most likely not going to change their viewpoints for anyone.
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I have grown up and have been brought up by a catholic family my whole entire life. I went to a catholic school for grade school and have attended church regularly my entire life. Having that being said, I disagree with the catholic church’s stance on gay marriage. There are many people I know in my life that are homosexuals, including one of my aunts and some of my close family friends. I have no problem with their choice of lifestyle. I believe that everyone should do whatever makes them happy. If you like someone of the same sex and choose to be homosexual than that is your choice. I don’t think it is anybody’s right in the world to tell you, that you can’t do that. If that’s what you want to do, then so be it. This is one of the only issues I disagree with about my religion. I just don’t understand how someone can tell someone, “Hey you can’t do this because I don’t think it is right, even it makes you happy, you shouldn’t do this because I don’t believe it is right.” That is basically what the catholic church and some government officials are saying to people who choose their lifestyle. I look at this issue and compare it to back when African Americans were not treated equally by white people. There was so many struggles for so many years, but after a while we realized how wrong this was to not treat another human being equally. It doesn’t matter about what color your skin is, you should be treated the same was any other person in the world. We have made great strides since then and now African Americans are being given the chance to live happily and succeed in ways they were not able to do before. I strongly believe that this is the same process that gay marriage will go through. A few years ago this was widely opposed, but over the years people have become more and more favorable of gay marriages being considered legal and giving them the same rights as other marriages. So, I think in the upcoming years this will finally be a non-issue and gay marriages will get the rights that they want, and in my opinion what they deserve. Now, even though I think that one day the government will come to grips with this issue, I firmly believe that catholic church will not change its stance on it. There have been few to minimal changes over thousands of years with the catholic beliefs and I think this will become no different. Should they change their beliefs on this? Maybe. Will they change their beliefs on this? Never.
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In no way do the following arguments necessarily represent my personal opinion, rather they are just what I think are the "answers" to these questions might be. I rather avoid making my beliefs public The question is about gay marriage. Some people have brought up the argument that they would rather it be a union, not a marriage, explaining marriage is a sacrament of the Church. Right, well marriage is a legal title, as well, and that is where this issue is concerned. The church and state are separate. What is the compelling reason for it not be a marriage in the legal sense? Perhaps what I do not understand most is why people care so much? I do not why or gay marriage would directly affect my life so greatly. Maybe there are answers to that, I would like to know. I just find it hard to feel so passionately about something that does not really change me. Denying some one rights is a pretty big thing to fight when you have no actual attachment or relationship with the issue.
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I read the majority of these comments and don't even know where to start or who to respond to. I was honestly baffled when reading through these posts at the number of people who said incredibly hateful and "holier than thou" comments. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they please, but I just cannot accept people being disrespectful and even hatred towards another group. Believe what you want but do not judge others or act like you are somehow better than them because you live your life by "the book". And let's not kid ourselves, who actually lives by the book? I would like to follow each of you around for a day who quoted the bible as an attack against gay marriage and see how many sins you commit. Even if you are religious, this really shouldn't even be an issue for you. A legal marriage is granted by the state, and as previous posts noted, we are supposed to have separation of church and state in the United States. It really shouldn't be up to the church or any one religious person to decide if gay couples have the right to get married. If marriages are granted by the state, then they should be equally granted to every United States citizen. If you want to call marriage a "holy matrimony," then get married in a church by a priest and that is your deal. If you want to call gay marriages a union, then all marriages should be called a union.. and "marriages" can only occur under the direction of the church. But, as it was brought up in my discussion group, most people in our country do not keep the "sanctity" or marriage anymore. Considering the divorce rate, number of annulled marriages, number of loveless marriages, etc, etc etc… I just don't see the "sanctity" anymore. It really isn't an issue about right or wrong.. it is an issue about human rights. No religion should get to decide who does and does not get rights in our country. You have every right to think how you please or disagree with what other people do, but those opinions have no place in our laws. And for anyone against gay rights/relationships/marriage, I just want to ask, who are you to judge them? What makes you so righteous? It doesn't make any sense to me. Denying two people love because of a religion that is supposed to be centered around love and acceptance of others. It is just so hypocritical.. and hurtful. Perhaps people should spend a little less time and energy fighting against something that will never affect their life personally, and should begin living their own lives and focus on loving others, like their religion directs them to do.
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I agree completely. There is no reason to be against gay marriage whatsoever. Regardless of any traditional definitions of the term, marriage is, in my opinion, a union between two individuals who love each other for any reason they see fit. Who is anyone to say that two people can’t get married. I think this argument is so stupid. I hate listening to people who are against gay marriage. It is so frustrating!
It might be because I am not that religious, which I guess is understandable if you are religious. But thinking that using religion to justify someone against gay marriage is ignorant as well. Why is religion against gay marriage? Because it is not holy? That is so dumb. Religion is just an excuse to hate or be against someone or something. Religion segregates people for no reason. Think about if people did not use religion as justification to oppose gay marriage. There would be so much less hatred in the world. Think about if people did not use religion to justify any opposition. Formulate your own opinions! You can not, or should I say… should not, be permitted to prevent people from doing things just because you don’t approve of it. To each his own! For so few words it really holds a ton of value. Let people be who they want to be, let people do what they want to do. Every action has its consequences, as well as benefits. So, in that case let individuals determine things for themselves.
So, in terms of gay marriage. It should one hundred percent be legalized. Gay marriage is completely okay in my book. For those who oppose, as hard as it may be, put yourself in their shoes. If you love someone, and believe in something as special as marriage, how would you feel if someone prevented you from marrying the person you love. I can guarantee that you would be upset. Listen, gay people are people too. They are made of the same material all humans are made of. They might think differently than straight people, but they are entitled too. That is what makes us all individuals. If everyone was the same, life would be so boring. Live the way you want, do not let other people’s opinions affect who you are or desire to be.
And who knows, gay parents might be much better than some of those straight assholes who neglect their kids and families. Gay couples are forced to adopt their children, for the most part. And, they have to go through a lot to get these adoptions approved, which means that they really really want a child. Thus, they would not neglect this child. I mean, marriage, for a lot of people, is about starting a family. And, there is nothing wrong with a family that functions like a family is supposed to. So if two gay individuals are at the head of this family, so be it. Their children might go on to do great things like cure cancer or discover life on another planet. Then what would some of those stuck up individuals say about gay marriage? You’re right, they would have nothing to say.
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I have never believed that being gay is wrong. In my view, you can’t help whom you love or to whom you are attracted. Therefore, since marriage is an expression of love and a symbol that you want to spend the rest of your life with your loved one, I have never believed that gay marriage is wrong. Until I came to this class, I never thought about marriage as a sacred sanction of the church. Therefore, I can understand now that some people think that because being gay violates different religious beliefs, gay people shouldn’t be able to show their commitment to one another through a religious ceremony. However, I agree with Sam that it is important to note who is being a hypocrite. If you are getting drunk all of the time and violating other religious beliefs, then you really have no right to judge what other people do and say that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married.
I think it is interesting how Sam said that he has no problem with someone like the Willard preacher thinking that it is wrong to be gay and therefore wrong to get married. When you think about it, these people really do believe that God literally said the words that are in the Bible and that humans proceeded to write them down. While I’m not very religious, I had a roommate last year who was extremely religious like the Willard preacher, and she believed that it was a sin to be gay. She also thought that it was a sin to be drunk and would therefore pray for my friends and I when we drank. However, one of my other friends explained to me that because she cares about my well being and also does not wish badly on any of my other friends whom she does not know, this was the reason why she prayed for us – because she genuinely believed that we could go to Hell, and she therefore wanted to save us from this fate. After my one friend explained it to me that way, I thought it was sort of nice in a really twisted way. I thought to myself that at least she cared about me enough to pray for me since she thought I was doomed. I’m not sure if this is the same mindset that Christians have about those who are gay, but maybe it is?
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I think in terms of gay marriage, I feel that people have the right to choose. I really don’t know if I agree with it or not, because of my religion. However, it does not give me or people that do not agree with it the right to determine what a homosexual couple can do. You cannot bar two people who love each other from getting married, no matter how you feel about it. It is there right, and they have the freedom to do what they please. Can you imagine if there was a law that stated a black person and white person could not be married? It makes absolutely no sense. Just because people’s religions, mine included, state that gay marriage is wrong, it does not mean that they can’t get married. They should be able to follow what they believe and have the same freedoms in marriage as anyone else.
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I cannot support gay marriage because it doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t care if it’s not a choice according to most people. Plenty of people do things without thinking and plenty of it is looked down upon. Why do people just have to question why people don’t support it? I have always thought that gay marriage was wrong and I may not have any reason behind it but can people give me a legit reason as to why I should support it? Nobody has yet so I will keep going on not supporting gay marriage and I will continue to live my life without caring!
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kap5271 Reply:
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:03 am
try reading some of these comments and maybe one of them will be able to change your mind
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sterlingb13 Reply:
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:17 am
no.
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i think that you have the purpose of the class confused. Sam said that he isn't trying to change our views on anything in the world, hes just trying to make us think. Im not saying that i'm against gay marriage, but i dont think its fair to expect someone to change their mind on a topic so large as this. A lot of reasons that people give for not supporting gay marriage is religion. You cant expect someone to walk into class, sit down and listen, and come out completley changed and questioning their religious beliefs, thats just not rational.
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Sam made some good points during that lecture but I still do not support gay marriage myself. I am in the category of people who does not care if they are allowed some sort of legal union, but I do not want it to be called marriage. Originally it was because of my church upbringing but if Sam won't accept that argument from someone who does not follow all of the church rules then I am against it for the sake of tradition. Traditionally marriage has been between a man and a woman. There are some older civilizations that would allow same sex relationships but I don't think they were referred to as marriages. The ancient Athenians approved of two men having a relationship and living together but it was an apprenticeship.
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Even after today's lecture, I don't believe in gay marriages or gay couples but it did make me accept them more. On the other hand, I don't think everyone who says they are bisexual are bisexual. I think it is just their way of experimenting. Like if a girl decides to make out with another girl or to have sex with another girl when she's in college, then she's just experimenting. This could also be caused by peer pressure; well guys who want to see girls make out and desperate girls who will do anything for attention. If a girl expresses gay behaviors from a young age, then okay I am willing to accept that but either way, I am no one to judge. So gay people, do whatever you want, it's a free country right?!
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