posted by Sam Richards
These are great questions. Let me be clear about what I was trying to say so as to make sure that you respond to what is cool about the questions — because they’re great questions.
As to the LLBean photos, at issue is that if you’re in the Immersion Stage as a person of color, then those people of color in the LLBean catalog are “questionable” people of color. In other words, you’re going to feel some kind of way about the ways in which they’re blending into the “majority society” (i.e., white society). And you’re going to critique them by saying things like, “They’ve been whitewashed” or “They’re acting white,” etc. In essence, you’re going to laugh at THAT depiction of blackness or brownness. If you don’t think that when viewing these photos, then you’re likely not in the Immersion stage.
As to Jesse Jackson, returning to one’s roots is simply indicative of the “Pseudo Communitarian” stage. If you feel no special pull toward your own roots and instead choose to follow any path that is calling to you, then it’s an indication that perhaps you’ve moved on to the Humanitarian stage.
I can understand as to why this student felt offended by some of the things said in class about LL bean or Jesse Jackson, but as Sam said, if aren’t thinking like he is then you are still stuck in one of the stages, “Immersion stage,” to be exact. When sitting in class listening to Sam speak, I don’t find myself to be offended by anything that he says. He isn’t a professor for nothing, he is passionate and very intelligent in Sociology. When sitting in class we might forget that Sam has gotten past prejudice and racism and that he is trying to get us all to understand everything he teaches us. He might say things in a way that shock or even make us wonder why we are listening to him, but he knows what he is talking about. He tries, and i think does a great job, relating the information we have to know and understand to situations that we will all be put in at some point in our life. By getting offended and worked up over the things he says in class, simply means that maybe you aren’t ready to move through the stages and eventually “win.” To me, Sam has “won” and is trying to get each and every one of us to see that it is possible to move past all the prejudices and racism put into our world.
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gcj Reply:
April 3rd, 2010 at 2:38 am
When do you win? Do you ever win? Lets observe and see if one could ever “win”. In society you will always have those who oppose what you do. You will either be too black or not black enough. You are either for the “people” or against the “people”. Working for the “man or “against the man”. It is an inevitable journey that people of color experience.
If Jackie Jackson never went to the Appalachians he would have been considered a candidate strictly for the black people. However, he did go and probably received scorn from blacks in the country who believed he was conforming. Whites watched as he came to appeal back to blacks and considered him just going back to his people. I was shocked when Sam used this example. Why couldn’t he just be appealing to the poor, they were his target audience.
Actions are not defined by color or ethnicity. I do not think Sam was hinting at that, I thought he was just making a joke so no I was not offended by that but the young lady in the video has every right to be offended by whatever she sees offensive. No one can bash her views simply because you think different. Yes, Sam is very intelligent and passionate but that does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is golden. He says it himself; he sets out to make us thinkers. That is exactly what this young lady is doing. She uses information brought forth in class and creating an argument and standpoint. When she saw this picture feelings sparked in her that caused her to react, who can tell her she should not be offended.
I do not agree that if you become offended that you are not able to move forward. I believe if you are willing to move pass the offense and the anger then you are ready to move forward. You are ready to conquer racism, discrimination, segregation, and rivalry amongst the American people- all people. I believe passing judgment hinders our forward strides. So we should try to look pass judging people, try to avoid our chastising ways. For the most part, our judgment comes across as condescending and discourages the opposing person from trying to make a change.
Why do you think he won? Because people of different races agree with him? There are also people who disagree with him and people who believe what he says is absurd. It just goes back to the saying you can’t pleased everybody. I believe he “won” because he accepts himself, his beliefs, ad moves toward uniting people. He wins because he is using his talents to better others. In essence Jesse Jackson was doing the same thing. If you are accomplishing your goals and 1you are happy with yourself and put an effort to make others around you better, I believe you won but who am I? It is up to the person to believe they “WON”!
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To be offended means 1. To be caused displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in. Did the little comment Sam made about the photos in the LL Bean catalog really offend you?
That is why people are called racist. This is why people are backing away from talking about race at all. This is why people aren't opening up. It's a sociology class about race, ethnicity, culture, population, and differences. I cant see why you would have gotten offended by any of the comments made about the LL Bean catalog. Apparently, people aren't able to laugh at themselves, I mean, if you can't laugh at yourself, I don't know how you can get through a whole day. I constantly brush things off and just laugh, want to know why? It's not that important, it does not affect what is going on at that particular time or even in my life. And it hasn't caused me displeasure, anger, resentment, and not even wounded feelings.
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mattmcgloin Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:36 am
i agree with what you are saying. this is a sociology class we are suppose to be able to open up and speak freely about how we feel about race and culture and things like that. these are the things that make me upset when someone makes a comment and then a person of a different race gets upset over it. this is why so many people choose not to say anything thing during a debate or something like that. we need to learn to not take things seriously and learn that everyone has an opinion and you should not become upset over it.
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dabusiness Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 4:20 am
I agree with both of you on this subject. I think it is an important point and one that Sam keeps reiterating by sitting back in his chair at the race table, when imitating a white person. Especially in this situation when he was not putting down Jesse Jackson’s work, he was just saying that there is a stage above him where race would not matter at all. That of course is an unnatural stage, because people naturally want to help the ones they can relate to, and so it is natural for Jackson to want to help other colored people. This does not mean he is any worse of a person for it.
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This is obviously why people steer clear of the race topic. Yes it should be talked about. Yes we should all be open to listening to others and having them listen to us. We should want to know more about what we are unaware of. But if people are so critical of themselves, they are going to be ten times more critical to the person who says something. As much as we want to think people are open to knew things, times changing, is it? Do people really want to talk about race, or just catch someones slip up of words? I mean every comedian clip that we watch who makes fun of their own race and every other race in the building, people laugh at, the audience laughs, the comedian laughs themself. I sat through a race relations project one night, and they asked me what word really offends me. I said, "Honestly, I don't care what you call me, it really won't bother me unless, unless you call me fat. Then I'll be pissed." They laughed, I laughed, but I was serious.
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And winning? it's not about winning. What game is it that we were playing? And how come I wasn't aware of it? When it comes down to it, what's to win? The LL Bean catalog and Jesse Jackson comments have nothing to do with winning anything. It's about listening to other people, people from all over, who are all different. It's about taking in and really thinking about others culture. It's about expressing your own culture and beliefs. It's about teaching. And most importantly, it's about learning. It has nothing to do with winning, but winning over yourself. Be true to yourself, know who you are as an individual. And be able to enjoy who you are and laugh at yourself.
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LyndsieS Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 6:53 pm
I agree with you! This is why people steer away from the race topic. Because it's like no matter what we do or say, someone is still going to be offended. If there were no black people in the LL Bean catalogue then that would be offensive, but then when there are black people in the catalogue and Sam jokes about them not being "real" black people and people get offended about that too! I agree that people need to take this less seriously and just laugh it off. This would be like me getting offended by saying that white people can't dance. I can't dance! I'm a terrible dancer. I laugh it off, I tell people that I'm way too white to dance. I'm white, and I make fun of myself for "acting" what. Your right it's not about "winning" anything, it's about accepting ourselves for who we are and accepting others for who they are. Yes there are going to be culture difference whether it be clothing or music or whatever, but we just need to accept that. And if we can laugh about it, even better.
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blopdyke Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 10:41 pm
Alright guys do you really think laughing things off will solve this major problem? I understand what you guys are saying about people get offended either way, but I think you are missing the point. Do not get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you are both saying, but I just do not think it is that simple. I was once called a disgrace to my race for being with a black man, I cannot laugh that off especially when that is coming from other people on this planet. I can not even imagine what some minorities face out there when it comes to racism. Granted it really is a no win situation and maybe you mean like little things like the LL Bean catalog should just be laughed off, and not every little thing should be taken so seriously because I do agree with that. I laugh when people say white people cannot dance cause I know that it is not entirely true. Just like I am sure some of the black people were laughing at the catalog because they know there not dressing that way. I do not think the girl was that offended by the catalog, I just think she was trying to understand when other races will fit in. If you think about it there being called not really black because there dressing that way, but than were their "acting black" people through out racism towards them cause their black. It is kind of a vicious cycle. What I think is worse, is that they feel the need to do dress "white" in order to fit in to society. It is not fair that we judge people so much on what they look like. Sam wants us to talk, I think that is the point of the class. Racism probably will never be completely gone from our society. To answer the one girls question, I think people just have to do what makes them happy. I do not know if you will ever not be criticized I wish I knew, but you just have to be yourself. I feel like maybe someday we can all win together, but I would agree when you guys say it is not about winning. In sports they say "it's about how you play the game" I am a firm believer that that's true, winning should not matter. I also agree that we should all just try to accept one another and who cares how you dress or what you look like. Unfortunately, that is just hard to convince every person in this world to do that. I wish it was not. There is a lot of uncertainty when it comes to race relations, we just all need to keep trying to move forward.
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If it were up to me, I think it would be ideal for everyone to be in the Humanitarian stage. That way people do not see color, they just see people. Or at least that is what I got out of the description of the Humanitarian stage. However, I can definitely see why some black people who are in the Immersion stage laugh at some of the images in catalogues like L.L. Bean. They're funny. If you are black, you know you do not really dress that way, so why pretend like they do? Well that is one way in which advertisers try to appeal to all ethnic and racial groups- by included all of them.
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flippyfloppies Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 4:52 am
I agree with you in that I think it would just be a whole hell of a lot easier if everyone were in the Humanitarian stage. But I disagree with how you defined it…I don't think that people in the Humanitarian stage are blind to color. I don't think people can ever really be blind to color, that's like saying 'Oh I didn't realize you were a woman/man' or 'Oh I didn't realize you had two eyes and a mouth'. Color is just another part of what makes us who we are. I think that being in the Humanitarian stage means being able to move past JUST seeing color, being able to look someone right in the eyes and seeing them for who they are deep down. Maybe this is what you were trying to say.
And I don't really understand why the person in the video felt offended by the LL Bean catalog. Were any white people offended by the video we watched of Chris Rock making fun of white people? I wasn't…
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DIVRED5 Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Yes it would be great if everyone were in the humanitarian stage. But we cannot force that on anyone, right? How people get there is the beauty of it, maybe not always. If there we bad, how could you tell what was good? Just because you want to be good does not mean that you are. Sam’s class is probably a step for people to first think, realize, and be aware. It is pretty damn cool how he does it, open up color to a whole new view of everything around us. It works for some people who are already way up on that ladder but it probably takes some kind of suffering or loss in a person’s life to understand what they truly feel and where the source of those feelings come from. When we were babies we tried to imitate everything our parents did, then we grow up rebelling to everything that they believe in. At that stage we already start to question why and try to find answers. This is good, for you sense you have an identity. Then people tend to grow their identity and finally figure out that it does not matter. It may be hard to understand but we cannot simply learn this in a textbook. Sam maybe trying to throw everything he knows into this class and help us through that process. I think he is that extreme (theories can never be true cause there is not ultimate proof) because nothing else happens to shake us. In this process we may get angry with what we are able to see in front of us, which is why many people get so easily offended in class. Because everything that they have been exposed to was a big trick, books and words will not tell us so easily why we are here. Society as much as it helps us, also conditions our true nature into a stagnant being. With graduation coming up soon, I cannot help but piece all the classes together taken for the past four years and make the connections. It has been the coolest thing learning experience ever. I know though that I still have a lot to learn and see. And I am excited to discover many other new things. Reading and travelling would be my other majors if there was a slot for it in penn state, those would be it. I learnt that the most unconventional ways of learning opened me up to a whole new way of looking at life. We can all aspire to do something great in life, be of service to each other, but first we need to take baby steps to figure out how to get to that state.
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But in doing so, sometimes other races can actually get offended because they feel like they are being "whitewashed". So where is the happy medium then? When we do not include blacks, we get ridiculed. When we do include blacks (or other races for that matter), we get ridiculed. No one really wins. But then again I guess it all goes back to the different stages for different races that we learned about it class. People cannot really fully understand "equality" until the very last stages of their lives. I am not even sure what stage I would consider myself to be in because I see common views in a few.
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However, I do know some black families that dress in a "preppier" way, as shown in the L.L. Bean catalogues and they would not be offended by the pictures shown in class. It really just depends what area of the country you are from too. I, personally, did not take any offense to the pictures shown in class because it did not seem strange to me. I see people dressed like that at home, black and white, so it did not phase me.
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I agree with the post before me that if you did get offended by these photos, you are still stuck in the Immersion stage. I do not necessarily think that the Immersion stage is bad, it is actually healthy. But after a while, you need to realize that people are not always trying to offend others. If anything, it is the exact opposite. Sam is obviously past the Immersion stage and probably in the early phases of the Humanitarian phase at this point. People like him are rare though. It is almost impossible to go through life without having your perception of color alert and always thinking.
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It is natural for humans to mentally seperate those of color and stereotype. I do not think it right, but it is definitely a hard thing to change in someone. I do not know if I will ever get to the stage that Sam is in, but I am sure it would be a peaceful place. But as long as tensions between our races and cultures still exist due to wars, poverty, and inequality, the majority of people will be stuck in the first few stages of development.
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keane Reply:
April 1st, 2010 at 3:47 am
I agree with what you said. Because of all the wars, poverty, injustices to certain to people and races etc, it's almost as if it is natural for us to think in terms of race and color etc. Society just introduces to the world in such a manner where we can never start off not thinking about race and color. Important things like society and history, and day-today things like music, movies and television, all shape our thinking in a way where most of us are inclined to think about people in terms of race. It is almost impossible for people to consider everyone to be equal because they can see very clearly that that is not the case. The "white" race is portrayed to be powerful, while poverty, disease and war is shown to be taking place in Africa and the Middle Eastern countries etc. It's for the same reason that we have stereotypes, because people who have not got past all the stages that Sam talked about (and I don't blame them for not doing so) just cannot think of people in terms of just individuals, but instead, as part of a certain race. Although the situation is becoming much better, because of people like Sam, I don't see it being solved any time in the near future.
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I have a question about the L.L.Bean issue. Not all black people do the same thing. For example black people by the pound, there is nothing wrong with that. The typical stereotype for black people is that they can't swim, but to tell you some white people can't swim either and I'm sure that other races of people can't swim too. I think people stereotype races and when they would look at the pictures that would go against the stereotype; they would say that the picture is trying to make the other race look like another race. I don't believe that everyone is different and to stereotype people and say that they don't do white things is wrong. They are no white, black, or brown group that does only what they are classified to do. The other picture was a black guy in L.L.Bean coat and jeans. People are saying that picture is wrong because black people don't wear those kinds of clothes. You can be surprise with what people wear. Again, having another stereotype about black people and what they wear. I'm sure not all black people wear the same clothing, because nobody wants to be the same, everyone wants to be themselves. I think there's a problem with people, thinking that a specific race only does certain things. They can't think outside of the box and realize that each person has their own personality. To classify people into groups is wrong thing to do, everyone wants to be themselves. Another thing people want to have color to their product, because they don't want to be consider racist. The problem with that is some people or like well that race doesn't wear that, or do that because their race never do that type of stuff. People just have to get over that and see the whole picture instead of their own. The other side of the issue is when a product only shows a certain races that wears or do their product. Then people would be saying "O that group is racist, because it only shows a certain race that uses the product." They are no easy way out of this issue. People just have to get over it. People need to stop stereotyping races and realize that everyone is different. Some people can't do that, because they were taught that a certain race does this. To solve this problem people need to speak up, and others would help teach them that not everybody do the same stuff.
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I wasn't offended at all about the LLBean Catalog. I come from very productive and successful family so basically when Sam questioned if those were fake black people I would say know your just stereotyping black/brown people as ignorant people that live in filth and poverty which is totally not true. My father is an actor/firefighter and my mother is owns her own medical practice so that picture would totally resemble my family. Just because there is picture of a black/brown family relaxing and enjoying a vacation doesn't mean that they are being fake. As for the comment about them being by a pond, I actually do not even get the joke about how black/brown people can’t swim. I am lifeguard in my town and my whole family can swim. I never knew that just because the color of your skin depicts what extracurricular activity you can accomplish. Wow people are weird. It is kind of funny because when they do not include black or brown people every one gets all worked up on how society only thinks white people are they definition of beauty or good fashion. But when they have black or brown people in regular magazine people complain that they are making the photos seem so fake. So basically you’re just trying to say that the stereotyping is correct if you’re saying that the photos are of fake black people. But on the other hand people complain that people should not stereotype against others because most of the time it is not true. People are very decisive and contradicting. America is really funny when it comes to race relations. So I also do not understand why this student felt so offended by Sam's lecture in class on Tuesday. I have actually learned a lot and have put many of things into perspective. He has answered various personal questions that I have always wanted to figure out because it was just so confusing. Remember, nothing is really offensive. Whatever you find offensive is offensive to you because truthfully people just find things offensive when others say something that everyone knows is true but never says it out loud. Sam basically puts all of our minds together and fixes them because on our own we would be to self conscious about things to speak up and sort things out. I am actually doing an essay on this topic for my English and I basically stated that there should be more community workshops where different ethnic groups get together and learn not about each other, just about the natural human being and how ever one is actually morally equal and we have to learn how to accept that fact that people come from all over but like Sam said 99.9 percent of our genome is the same as everyone on this earth but that .01 percent is different and that .901 percent is out physical appearance. It is very deep if you think about it a lot.
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speedygal108 Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:02 pm
I personally didn't understand the problem with the LLBean catalog. I don't understand why Sam even brought it up. LLBean has been delivered to my house since I was little and those images he showed are nothing new to me. Its a normal thing to have black people in retail magazines, so why make it into an issue. There are a couple reasons for why i feel that the editor of the magazine wanted to include black people in the advertisements.
1. who says what kinds of clothes someone can wear and what they cant?
Thankfully here in America there are no restrictions on what we all can wear, as long as you're wearing something. Clothing is a freedom of expression and can even be seen as an art form. It is a chance to express how you want the world to view you and a way to fit in with those who you associate with. So then why must we confine black people to wearing the stereotypical fubu brand or ecko clothes? There are plenty of black people who dress in the preppy style presented in LLBean and many white people who feel most comfortable in the styles presented by Fubu. Should it really matter who you hang out with and what you want to feel a part of in terms of race and clothing?
2. If LLBean hadn't included some black people in their advertisements, people would have been upset.
Even if no black people wore the clothes that LLBean makes, it would have been a big issue if they didn't include any black people. In our current "PC" society, people would take that as LLBean won't sell clothes to black people and think that their clothes are for white people only. Unfortunately, despite the awkwardness that some people think there is with this picture LLBean probably feels a pull to put black people in to make sure they avoid lawsuits. The interesting thing about this however is that LLBean is a New England based company. A New Englander myself, I can speak to the amount of diversity…very minimal. I think there may have been 5 black kids total in my high school. So should LLBean represent the diversity of the area they represent? Or represent national statistics?
Another random but somewhat related thought occurred to me when discussing this with my roommate; when we talk of "fashion" what fashion are we referring to? There are definitely many styles of clothes out there, but when we say something like oh that's in style now, whose style is that? And why did i just use the word "whose"? Does that style belong to one group?
I say just let LLBean keep doing its thing. They aren't hurting anyone.
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katieladie43 Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:06 pm
I agree completely. Most black and brown people I know do dress like those people in the LL Bean magazine. It isn’t just wrong to stereotype black people as poorly dressed thugs, but it is also plain rude. He didn’t show pictures of white boys in thug outfits so there was no need to show the catalog. I think LL Bean clothes are nice and therefore the clothes are nice for every race. If a family can afford LL Bean then more power to them to buy and wear the clothes. As a side note, my swim instructor was black.
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This is a very interesting question/comment. I understand why some people take offense in a lot of the things that Sam says or talks about in the class. But in the end, like Sam said, if you still take offense in anything that he says, then that means that you still haven't gone past all the stages. I believe that you "win" when you can listen to stuff, even the most extreme stuff about things, and not be offended by it – I believe that that is what Sam is trying to teach us. He is trying to get us to get past all the stages. I, personally, enjoy his class a lot and take no offense in anything that he says. Sure, his ways can be a little awkward and can catch people off guard sometimes, but I'm very sure that Sam knows exactly what he is talking about. So basically, if you still take offense in anything that he says, then you're definitely not past all the stages yet. I believe that it is absolutely wrong to stereotype people, or a certain race, because everyone is not the same. It's wrong to label people of a certain race with certain things, like their clothing or profession etc. The picture he showed of a black guy wearing a coat and jeans was very interesting, because it brought up a whole lot of different reactions from everyone. I heard a lot of people that the picture was "wrong", because black people don't dress like that – I found those comments to be the most shocking (and funny). This is one more instance where people stereotyped a certain race, or a person of that certain race, because really, anyone can wear anything they want, and I've seen people wear totally opposite type of clothing than what their stereotypes are supposed to wear. Also, as shown on the screen, when you type "beauty" in google, you get a whole lot of pictures of white women, which is again a stereotype, that beauty is associated with white people. But in truth, some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are women of color. People just have to stop seeing other people as members of a certain race etc, and start seeing each and every person as an individual. And also, people have to start getting over things that others say that offend them, the girl in the video asked us when we win, I believe that we win when we can talk about anything and everything without having to fear the consequences or when we can learn to move on and get past all the stages that Sam talked about.
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Can you win? Win what exactly? As I continue to attend lecture, I find myself asking this same question constantly, without ever settling on one conclusion. It should be pretty obvious by my previous posts that I do not agree with Sam in several areas. That is not to say that I disagree with everything he says and I think he makes great discussion topics in class. But going back to the class where the gentleman asked what the end goal is, Sam’s response was lackluster at best. He first blurted out “death” and then soon corrected himself by saying “discussion, just discussion man”.
I really do not think Sam knows the answer to this question, as shown by his two complete opposite answers. But I am also not going to hold this against him because no one has a good answer to this question. As I continue through this class, I realize that everyone has their own interpretation of how race should be discussed and what is offensive or not. Just because two people are black does not automatically mean that they think the same way or think of race the same way as well. This can be shown by the LLBean example in class—not all black people are going to react the same way here. So how are we supposed to sit at the race table and put our own ideas and opinions out there before we know exactly how the person on the other side is going to react? Sam’s point that white people should not be afraid to start race discussions is good in theory, but the people on the other side of the table may be offended by anything that comes out of that white person’s mouth—and the white person can do nothing about it.
Then we are off at a worse place than where we started. So maybe it is impossible to win. There will always be at least one person in our society who is racist or prejudice against some group, and it just seems that there is no hope in changing these people’s minds. So it may seem that you are doing everything right, doing everything you can to bring all races together and then there will be some person or some group that says you are going about things all wrong. Everyone has a different idea of what the final goal is in race relations. Therefore, it is virtually impossible to please everyone at once. The most important thing, I believe, is to be true to yourself and do what you really think is morally right to do. Not everyone agreed with Jesse Jackson, but does that mean that his goals for race relations were wrong? Certainly not.
Despite what Sam says, I think that sometimes the best answer is to just keep your mouth shut. It is like when you are suddenly offending someone and are trying to justify yourself, but just keep digging deeper and deeper. The whole situation could have been avoided in the first place if you just kept quiet. Some people just want to be treated equally and respectfully without ever mentioning their race or discussing race relations in any way. Others take a lot away from discussion. But I believe it varies from person to person, and not necessarily from race to race.
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You pose a great point. It's great when people like Jesse Jackson reach out to people of other races or cultures that are less fortunate. I found that to be an incredible deed that Sam mentioned. But then when Sam said that this really wasn't where you were supposed to be. You weren't supposed to then go back to your own culture. You are really supposed to be comfortable with who you are and not care what race or color you are supporting or not supporting. I agree with this student and don't really think that makes sense. Of course your going to go back to your original heritage. That's human nature, isn't it? Face it we are born as a certain race or ethnicity or whatever and the best that we can do is try and see past that and cross the color barrier but I feel that in the end we are always going to go back to what heritage we were born with.
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I totally get what she is saying, but Sam brought those examples up to illustrate the stages people go through. For example with Jesse Jackson: it’s not that he identifies himself as a black man. It is that his highest priority is his race and other members of his race. So when he went to talk to a dominantly white area to talk about class he was showing that he has matured enough in the stages that he is willing to speak and work with a dominantly white crowd about an issue they both have in common. What makes him a pseudo-communitarian and not a humanitarian is the facts that if something had happened in that area to the black community (a high profile case) he would no longer behave like a spokesman for all races. He would only be a spokesman for blacks. He would not treat those whites as partners in the class struggle or the race struggle but a member of the opposing team. His highest priority is black vs. white. If you would put a humanitarian in his ‘position’ he would not take sides according to race, but rather on the merits of the case.
For the llbean catalog, first of all it was not suppose to be a joke (so I’m not sure why you expected to laugh), it was to illustrate the immersion stage and just how far people in this stage will go. We watched the video with the black man wanting to exterminate all whites, that was to illustrate how someone in the immersion stage looks at people of other races (especially those they see as their competition or inferior to them). The llbean example was to show how that same individual (those in the immersion stage) might react to someone of their own race who is not conforming to their standards. In this case it was a historically white dominated brand (the clothing that is sold is seen as white people clothes). But they are advertising with black models, showing that anyone (no matter their race can wear llbean clothing). When can go a step farther and say that there is a black man dressed in so called ‘white man’s clothes’ next to another black man who is in the immersion stage. This second black man would think that the guy wearing the ‘white clothes’ is not truly a black man, that he was trying to be white.
Finally the idea of can you win, the answer is yes. When you finally get to the humanitarian stage you have won. It is the balance to understand and interact on a positive level with all races. Though Sam has brought up a very important issue and that is many people get stuck in some of the lower stages. Those at are stuck perpetuate the need for race relations, cause if we were all humanitarians race or ethnicity would make much difference.
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I think that Sam's point was just to put examples of people in different stages (jesse jackson) for us to better understand what he was saying. As far as the LL Bean thing, I do see what he is saying about that. If you don't like those pictures because you think they are stupid then you are still in the immersion stage. From this comment, it seems like you aren't really in this because you posed the questions "what are they supposed to do". Which is where i stand with this as well as the PSU brochures. what are they supposed to do? make the thing all white people to reflect what campus is actually like? Then they would get in trouble by groups saying that they are racist for not putting more races in the brochures. It is hard to take an accurate snap shot of some place like PSU that is so large. If people were really interested in the school and race really mattered to them-they would most likely look up statistics-not let themselves be fooled by the brochure pictures.
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There is no way to win, at least not in the grand scheme of things. We can't, it is just impossible. I suppose the only scenario in which a decided victory could be proclaimed is if one day there is no more need for a race relations class or circle discussions of race issues or what have you. But we can take little victories I believe. Unless I'm mistaken, the goal of these "stages" is a progression in your state of mind. 1/3
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They do not indicate that you are better or worse than someone else or that if you are further along that you are a winner. In fact if you believe that, your probably still in the pre-awakening stage hahaha. But seriously, if we were all at the place Sam is at the world would be crazy!!! Everyone would do and say whatever they wanted and people wouldn't give a crap, or maybe they would…I don't know. Who wants to live like that? I think the point Sam is trying to get everyone to experience is that there really is no point. At least not one big point that will solve everything. There are a lot of little points about how people behave and what causes them to do so. I don't really understand the whole Jesse Jackson thing either but the LL Bean catalogue was kind of funny the way Sam was showing it. But I mean c'mon those comedians he showed in class can do it to. The way people talk and walk can be dissected and humorized just like everything else in the world. 2/3
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I think that when people take offense to what Sam is saying they are missing the whole point of the topic. When Sam shows pictures of black people in LLBean and says "Those aren't REAL black people; is that black guy wearing shorts?; black people don't really like the water!" he is just spouting stereotypes that some people may conclude when looking at the magazine. This is what black or brown people may think in the immersion stage, because they are immersed in black culture and when they see black people trying to act "white" they feel some kind of way about it. His point is that the immersion stage is wrong and it is progress to a new realization- that everyone is different and black and white people can wear whatever they want in reality and shouldn't be judged by it. His comment about Jesse Jackson was not a negative one. He reaches out to people of many different races and this is good. He is a proactive speaker and does not just focus on black and brown people but he MOSTLY focuses on black and brown people, which is an example of the pseudo communitarian stage. When Jesse Jackson can reach out to people of all races and fight for the betterment of ALL humanity then he is a humanitarian. This is obviously a difficult stage to reach, and Sam has been all over the world and studied race relations all his life. He wasn't making jokes about black people in class, but rather pointing out and joking at the stereotypes that white people hold and black people in the immersion stage might hold against their own people. His point is that when we see color as a defining factor, like being a woman, and not as a definition of style, tendencies, and stereotypes, then we can reach the humanitarian stage. It is nothing to get offended about, he was trying to get us to think about society and our petty stereotypes. Saying there is no point to the class means you are not listening close enough and really thinking about what Sam is trying to get across.
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The catalogue may have a improportionate number of black people wearing supposed "white" clothing but so what? I see white people walking around all the time in supposed "black" clothing. Does that mean I should feel offended when I look in a magazine? I don't think so, maybe the magazine is trying to reach a new demographic of customers and broaden their appeal. Times are tough, I can't blame someone for trying to make a buck hahaha. That probably wasn't the point of showing the magazine pages…but really any time we see something that rubs us the wrong way we bark about it. Sam showed us pictures from the engineering building and they don't neccesarily reflect the actual numbers of students in that college male/femal wise or by race but they do reflect the different peoples of that college. Snd what's wrong with that? Isn't it good that people celebrate diversity and shwo that people of all backgrounds can be accepted into this place? 3/4
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What's the big qualm of balck people not wearing shorts? I see black people in shorts all the time! In fact, wasn't Michelle Obama wearing shorts for the first time in like 5 presidencies or soemthing like that? And last time I checked she was black. I think we get bogged down too much on little stuff like this when the bigger issues at hand are the inequalities that still plague this land. So what if there are a bunch of black people wearing shorts in an LL Bean magazine?! That just means we've won the battle for black and white people to be advertised equally wearing shorts. Now can we please focus on how to curb the drop out rates of inner city, mostly minority children? 4/4
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This entire class is aimed at basically making fun of every race so that we are all comfortable talking about all the stereotypes. If you cannot laugh at these kinds of ads and videos that Sam puts up in class, then you are missing the entire point of what he is trying to say. He is not trying to offend anyone. I took the ads as him trying to prove that what are people really looking for. If blacks dress like whites then why is it ok that they get made fun of for that. It should just be ok to wear whatever fits your personality, not always about race.
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This class is not about "winning". This class is about "understanding". I love this class because Sam let us see things from many different aspects, although some of them are quite offensive and rude, like those stupid comedians, I must say I have learned a lot. Hoping one course to "win" is not realistic. There is no way to change everybody's mind through a "class". There are too many people out there. Although Sam's efforts are very little, little by little we may see the hope for understanding each other– at least among all of us who have taken this class. Sam is no more than a college professor and this class is no more than a class. I personally don't have any expectations for this class, but I do believe that during the process of continuously thinking, communicating and talking, the racial issues will no longer become racial issues.
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Like many of my fellow classmates have pointed out. There is no "winning" here. There's just a sort of personal "understanding" that comes about when you get to the humanitarian stage.We all just need to strive to be in that humanitarian stage for as long as possible. I'm usually not phased by the things that sam says in class until other people start gasping in horror and talking amongst themselves. It doesn't mean I blindly follow whatever he says as the absolute truth. I think it just means I've reached a point where there is no reason to be offended anymore.
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As a white person, I can’t really say much about how I would feel about the L.L. Bean photos, but I definitely know a few black people that have made comments on photos like that not being very real looking. Sure, there are definitely black people that dress that way… but like Sam said, those people are ones that fit in with the majority of society (or white society). It is almost the same thing as what we talked about with black people straightening their hair. Their hair is naturally kinked, but they try to conform with white culture and straighten their hair and follow along with the white outlook on beauty. I think that is what Sam was trying to say with the L.L. Bean catalog. There are many black people (probably those in the immersion stage) that would say that those black people that dress like the ones in the L.L. Bean catalog are “selling out” to white culture and not embracing their real heritage.
Also, I think that Sam was completely right about Jesse Jackson. I don’t think Sam was trying to say that Jesse Jackson isn’t a good person because he only reached out to black people. I think Sam really meant that Jesse Jackson is doing great things, and he is even reaching out towards other cultures, but in the end, he wants to help black people the most. I don’t think there is anything wrong with reaching out to people of your own culture (after all, you probably feel the most towards them). I think the point Sam was trying to make was that Jesse Jackson is doing great things, but he is not quite at the Humanitarian stage yet. It is perfectly human to want to help your own people, but once you get to the humanitarian stage, it’s all about the entire human race and not just your own.
In response to the question, “How can we win?” I would say we can win by all making it to the humanitarian stage. Ultimately, I think that would be the goal of the entire race relations issue. If everyone were at the humanitarian stage, then the whole race issue would almost be non-existent. Clearly though, this is a very large goal that will probably not be met any time soon. I think the point of this class is just to get us thinking about race and talking about it. Because without talking about it, no one would ever move through the stages and become better people for it. Clearly not everyone will make it to the humanitarian stage like Sam said, but I think just talking about things and getting them out in the open will make for a better society and better people.
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What a great question because at first look honestly I laughed because I have friends who we say and even they say they act white and they aren’t really black. At first I never really thought anything of this however going through the steps I am believe I am now in a position where I really don’t classify people based on their color. I honestly believe we are all American and we all have our own sub-cultures in America. It’s not only “black” people who were flat brimmed hats and listen to rap and hip hop people of all colors do these same actions. I would have to classify this sub-culture as it own but has nothing to do with the color of your skin. Just like the preppy style there are plenty of whites, blacks, browns, purples, whatever color you want to call someone. It really at this point is coming to a point where we are saying O you are a red head or O you have a certain hair style I honestly believe we all owe each other a favor and need to start moving past all of this acting black because we could also say you acting blonde.
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Honestly, you can never really “win,” when you say one thing, there will always be someone saying the exact opposite. However, with these L L bean photos, I agree with Sam. Diversity (in color) is added to these catalogues but only in a sideways kind of way. Many people see these pictures and they may not allocate the black people into a category right away—simply because they are, in a way, made to be white. They have the typical yacht shorts on, a cardigan, loafers. Seriously, I have seen very few black people ever wearing an outfit like that. Now, I’m not saying there aren’t plenty who do, but it’s just not the uniformly accepted stereotype or image we, as people, have. When Sam said he looked for a black person wearing shorts and could only find his own TA—that says something. Truthfully, if you’re really that offended by some of the stuff that he said then maybe you haven’t opened your mind enough yet to get to the next stage—understanding things a little bit clearer. I think that is the main point he is trying to make with these different arguments: we are all in different stages and, depending on our understanding and stage, we see things a little bit different from the person sitting next to us.
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I disagree with the student who said she found some of the lecture offensive and not funny. This just proves that we are all in different stages of the spectrum. The way someone may look at this is obviously the way I look at it. I would say that I am in the Pseudo-Humanitarian stage, bordering on the Humanitarian stage, so this didn’t affect me in the same way it would affect someone in the Revisioning or Reversal stage. When Sam went through the pictures in the LL Bean catalogue, you could see that the people at LL Bean who are in charge of advertising thought it would be a good idea to throw some black and brown people in there so they wouldn’t be accused of discrimination. Let me just clear up one thing very quickly. I have never seen a black or brown person wearing LL Bean, or even in any of the various LL Bean stores that my parents have dragged me to over the years. Putting black and brown people in the catalogue is kind of like introducing a new white member of the Wu-Tang Clan; it just doesn’t fit and is kind of uncomfortable for all involved. Jessie Jackson is the same way. When Sam told us that he went to Appalachia for some town hall meetings, my first reaction was “why?” Jessie has done some great things for the black and brown team, but never really (at least in my mind) for the white team. In fact, this is the same dude who once famously called New York City “Hymietown” in reference to all the Jews that live there. This is clearly in reference to whites because the only Black Jewish person that I know of, Sammie Davis Jr., is dead and has been for some time.
The question posed was, “how do we win?” The way I look at it is that this is not a game, it’s not a competition. That being said it’s not really a victory in the traditional sense that we are after. We are after looking past a person’s ethnic background and their skin color and straight to the person behind the visual. The goal is to help people of all colors and backgrounds. Once you are comfortable within yourself, then you will be able to see past all of the visual aids and come to the aid of all peoples regardless of how they look and act. This is what we are all after. Sure, it’s a lofty goal but it’s the only plausible way to get to the same page on race relations. It’s not really all that much, but it’s something that can lead us down the right path.
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kenthethird Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 5:05 am
Hahah, there's gotta be a white dude out there who could get down with the Wu ! But totally agree about the LL "beaners", as Sam put it. I don't know whether I'm in the wrong to thing that the models looked awkward as hell, but I think they did. . A lot of people, black people included will chuckle at some thugged out white boys posing like their hard in baggy jeans and no shirt, it doesn't mean they shouldn't or can't dress like that. I mean, the term "wigger" came about because people think style of dress can be owned. Its the same thing here, I think its been established that cashmere sweaters and olive-green khakis are mostly worn by white people, I'm not used to seeing black people in that getup. This clothing barrier is less prevalent than it was like 10 or 15 years ago, when I saw a lot of young people of color wearing baggy ass clothes, huge FUBU shirts and big basketball jerseys, which became a distinguishing look for people into urban culture, something largely embraced by minorites.
It's just that times are changing and some of those clothing styles aren't worn anymore, I've noticed American Eagle and Hollister aren't just for white people anymore either.
I kind of wish more people where like the comedians we watch. I laughed at Sam's selection of L L bean images, the fact that they all have fake ass smiles does not make them look very natural in the first place, regardless of race. I think L L bean clothing is pretty corny dapper in general, and the L L bean sweater/dress shirt combo makes anybody look like Gregory Peck.
I don't ever remember being told that white people dress a certain way, or black people dress a certain way, but over the years it's became apparent that certain styles have been claimed and exploited by particular groups of people, and naturally I laugh when I see the black family dressed head to toe in the corny-dapper L L bean gear. Because, for many years, I've regarded L L bean clothing as garments for adventurous, canteen toting, walking-stick-having white people in Maine.
I think stereotypes are kind of cool. In the realm of comedy, I think it's safe to say that most stereotype jokes are funny because they actually do apply to a lot of people . I've always laughed at Eddie Murphy ripping on nerdy white people's voices, not to say that they all talk like that, but some do! and that shit is funny for him to point out, I don't get all offended about it because, what can I say? I've seen these nerdy folks before.
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I think this girl brought up a really good point; what is the point of this class? Can you win? It reminds me of the other day, during class; a guy asked Sam, what is the point of all of this stages? And Sam jokingly (or not) said death, but later he said, “To open conversations.” Is it just as simple as that? It looks like that the goal is much simpler than the actual process. I think open conversations is just the start, because once we open up conversations, pains, hurts, misunderstandings, tears, anger come out all at once, and it sometimes leads to the end of another conversation. I don’t think there is one correct answer to the purpose or point of this class or just learning about race and ethics, but it is a good exposure to the issues relating to them.
So what is the point of moving through all of these stages? The stages of Pre-awakening, awakening, immersion, disintegration, pseudo-communitarian, and humanitarian, is the end goal to reach humanitarian? Personally, I feel like that I am in the Pseudo communitarian stage. I notice race but like the girl in this video felt, I didn’t feel it was funny or the false, faking depiction of whiteness by the brown or black people. I do feel a pull towards my own roots many times because I have lived in China most of my life. I wouldn’t feel comfortable if I choose to follow any path that is calling me. I would choose a path that is the best match for me and one that can best express my strengths and skills. For example, if I was called to choose to either go to Europe or Asia to live long-term, I would choose Asia because I am more familiar with the culture, language, and people there. So I don’t think it means that I am not in a good stage compare to the Humanitarian stage. I think Sam showed the pictures of L.L. Bean models in different races to point out what people would see or feel or say if they were in the Immersion stage. When I put myself in a person in immersion stage’s shoe, I can relate to why they would feel certain way to the fakeness and incongruity of Black and Brown people dressing in “white” people clothes or styles. Basically, like the later videos that Sam showed, the likely cause of that kind of thinking is because the person stayed with his/her own race circle for way too long. When someone hangs out with only one race group for a long time, one’s world view and perspectives can get really biased and skewed.
I think the point of this class is to explore our own sociological stage and to open up more racial dialogues and deepen conversations. I think it is not about winning per say, it is about the overall progression of our understanding of race and the reduction of racism, discrimination and stereotypes
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I think the person asking this question is still caught up in this race thing and has not passed any hurdles. It seems like she gets offended really easy when it comes to the race issue. Sitting in class I didn’t feel the LL Bean comment or the Jesse Jackson comment disturbing or racist. If Sam can’t go in front of us and be himself then this class wouldn’t be what it is, and we wouldn’t be able to see racism from the angle that Sam targets his students too look from. If people are failing to look at the problems of racism right now and the different stages that people go thru and completely understand the stages then you won’t see the point Sam is making at all, and will find his comments somewhat similar to this girls who is not understanding the true meanings of the LL Bean and Jesse Jackson example. And I remember when I myself use to look at magazines and see a white person advertising basketball shoes, I would think to myself who ever put him there is a real dummy, because most of the people I think around the world know that black people are probably the best basketball players, though this may seem stereotypical its true. But now I am over that stage where I don’t see anything wrong with a white man advertising basketball or any athletic apparel. If the person who asked this question can get over the stage she is in she will understand the class and Sam better.
When it comes to how can we win, well let’s start by first asking ourselves are we ready to change? And the answer is no. When we first talked about slavery in our class and how it plays a role in our everyday life did we look back after class and find out if our clothes that are being made, are the people getting paid minimum wage? Are they actual slaves that are making our clothes or phones or anything? No, we just found out that there are more slaves now then anytime before in history and that slaves are cheaper than ever before did this make us get up and take a stand for slavery? Again the answer is no. My point I am trying to make is pretty clear if we just consume the information Sam gives us it is not enough ya it’ll make us smarter and give us more knowledge, but the point of the class is to change, stop wearing the companies that don’t have minimum wage employees, that don’t have slaves working for them. Until we personally don’t change ourselves we can’t win, every person makes a difference, but not every person wants to be the difference.
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Its true that the things that Sam say are out of ordinary, Sam discusses issues and topics that are considered "hush hush" topics in norms and basically things that people do not really go out and say in public or even in a class room setting. So the answer to the speaker in the video where she ask "can we ever win?" In response there is always a way that we can win. Is there a point in being Soc 119 and talk about issues of race and ethnicities? Yes there is, sometimes people need to be awakened and face issues and conflicts of race and ethnicity. Sure, sometimes in class Sam would say things that in a way offends people where people would leave class, people would grip their hands, people feel emotions of anger and a mindset of misunderstanding the point that Sam is trying to get out. Through all that, I believe that everyone in class has their eyes opened to the topic and issues of race and ethnicity. The purpose of Soc 119 is to get people aware of what is really out there and what we need to face that is in reality and not be blinded and naive to the issues that really exists in our races in society. As i move through and analyze the stages of Preawakening, awakening, immersion, disintegration, pseudo communitarian, and humanitarian stages i feel like I am part humanitarian stage but in reality i am more of Pseudo communitarian stage. I am opened to all cultures and want to base a person on the inside and not on the outside. But sometimes i would cling and attach myself to group of people i feel home with and sometimes accept people like them more than people who were different, i would sometimes have anger or blame people of different race of mine for many things but i reality i act only in my hatred and anger. A person can only win if he is able to understand, listen to views of other people and not be offended by them and act in anger to argue with them. If you can do that , i believe that is how you will win, that is when you know and understand through full mindset of positive thoughts.
the stages and learning the topics in soc 119 are helpful and do have a purpose. i believe people learn alot from them and from it we can learn alot about our sociological stages and be more open to issues of race and react to it from normal norms. In the end, it is not about winning or saying we achieve on pasting through all stages, it all comes down to each and every one of us understanding the issues of race and ethnicity and knowing how to respond to it by reducing the threat of mindset of racism discrimination and stereotypes.
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There obviously isn’t a win situation. It shouldn’t be about winning or losing here. People just need to understand that these things are issues and should be addressed. I feel like if anything this class has completely pissed people off, made them really emotional, or completely question their views or Sam’s. I think this was his point. Even if it makes people really mad to think about these things, or if people agree, or even get emotional, at least we are all thinking about the subject, and that is the point. He wants us to think and make our own decisions and argue with him and think about what he has to say.
If you think about it that way it is really interesting. To be honest, I think it is as simple as saying, “lets open conversations about this”. It makes it so we all just speak. Like today, that guy was talking about how he should get the job his uncle gives to him because its his family. A lot of people thought this was complete bull shit, and im sure a lot of people agreed as well. It’s a part of life, and before we get to any conclusion about anything or make it a win lose type situation, we have to at least put it out there in the open and speak about it. Without speaking about it, how can anything get solved?
And yes, I do believe that things could potentially get solved. But Sam is right in bringing up all these topics and making us uncomfortable and feeling out of our limits. Even though sometimes it makes us all want to just leave and hide away from the topic, we shouldn’t. The only way we can ever fix things is if we realize what is going on and change from it. We all have to understand how things are, and do our own part to change the world. It takes one person at a time to make a difference. Even though we all like to feel affiliated with a certain social group, or racial group, or whatever, we are all one as a people. We are all human beings. The day that people actually realize this will be a great day.
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I completely agree with the whole LL Bean catalog nonsense because I know plenty of black people who dress like those people in the catalog were dressing and my friends wear shorts when it’s warm out. They may not be as short as the khaki’s that the one black man was wearing but my friends wear khaki cargo type of shorts all of the time during the summer and many even have kind of a “preppy” kind of dress but do not have that kind of personality, they just like to dress in clothes that fit them and look good. Also, with the whole Jesse Jackson thing, I don’t understand what Sam was saying either. I mean he’s explained before that you’re going to identify with your own group because it’s familiar and comforting but that doesn’t mean that people are not trying to come to a common ground and improve this gap between black and white people.
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The point of this class is to make you think. People will just sit down and sleep if Sam just tells you what you already know. I love the way Sam teaches and I wish more of my profs would do the same. He challenges your thinking and brings out your thoughts from inside of you. Sometimes you are outraged and sometimes you just agree with everything and laugh along. But you always think and are stimulated in this class. That is the point of this class. It is to make you think about race and all his outrageous claims and talks are the only way to make you do that.
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As to the L.L. Bean thing in class on Tuesday, I found it very funny. In a way, a part of me agreed with Sam on this issue, while the other part of me felt the same way as the girl in the video. Some of it is definitely true though. I have never seen a black man wear dress shorts or a lot of black people doing water sports/ hanging out near water. It feels unnatural since I guess it isn't done all the time, but I don't think that it shouldn't be taken as it should not be done.
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I agree with what Sam says in his little commentary before the clips about the LL Bean catalog. I think that individuals should try to identify with what moves them as well. If a black guy wants to dress up in a suit and tie or a polo and jeans because that is the world he lives in, then fine. The same goes for a white teenager who listens to rap music and wears baggy jeans, a bandana, and an extra large t-shirt. The images may seem to stray from the norm, but this is how these individuals see themselves in the world.
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I never really understood the whole thing about winning or losing. That is not me saying I do not understand that whole topic of discussion, but it is just like one poster had said regarding about this idea of winning and losing. You know, even the board game “Life” does not take race into account. So why are we playing “Life” the real version. Why do people have issues where issues do not need to be? Well, it starts in a variety of ways. Take the “Tokenism” discussion we had in last class for example.
You have employers giving jobs out to people who are less deserving than others, which are wrong, but now make one of the job searchers white and the other black. Now suppose the black man is more qualified than the white guy, yet the white guy gets the job. I do not think the black man is going to say the better man won. You can be sure the words “racist” and “discrimination” will be tossed around. Then the black guy will start to believe that no matter what job he applies for the white guy will always win in the end. Therefore, his “team” is hardly ever going to win. But this does not apply to everyone of course.
In the case of the LLBean magazine, Sam says Blacks would be judged as trying to be white and people will question whether their true blacks. As a city person, one thing I have seen if blacks hate it when white people try to be like them. The same can be said for some whites who do not want black people to try and act white. This is where the conflict of “teams” comes in because neither “team” wants to be diverse. Yet all sorts of publications, posters, or wherever photos can be found have to be diverse and include people from various teams. So would that the game of “Life” can leave room for each of the “teams” to blend together?
Unfortunately for this game, neither team will ever win over the other. So how can this game ever end? My suggestion is to drop the stereotypes, racial issues, and discrimination then perhaps we can look at each other as one rather than many. If there is one thing we all have in common is our anatomy is the same. Just because one person is darker or lighter than the other does not make them a whole other person. We are one in the same.
At this campus, or any campus, everyone is the same regardless of color. Even if a person who had pink skin color was attending this campus he is still one in the same with us. This game we are supposedly playing needs to be called a draw so we can start playing another game, like “Sorry.”
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I understand what she is saying. I am white, but I feel the same way in that it seems that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Because no matter how we feel about race, it is how we are perceived that is really important and because of different stages, people will perceive actions differently depending on what stage they are in. Furthermore, who came up with these stages? I think there is some legitimacy to them, but I certainly don't think that they are this cut and dry. It is one of the things I hate most about social sciences, in that they all dry to quantify things that really can't be put into numbers. I remember thinking the same thing in psychology class when we learned the stages of morality, and I was told that one course of action is always immoral, or that society's rules are king. I just think that just because some professor says it, does not mean it is true.
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I think this student's question of "can we win?" is really interesting. Although I do not feel like a win/lose heading is necessarily appropriate for this topc, I don't think we can win. I thought it was really interesting when Sam brought up the LL Bean catologue ads and said something to the effect that these are "fake black people". I don't understand why they are "fake". Is it because they're not dressed as how we stereotypically think of black people? Are they fake for going on vacation? I think this is why we can't "win" though because although I did not find Sam's jokes about the family in the pictures funny, many people did. I don't think we're ever all on a close enough page in order to seriously fix views on race.
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I think the whole concept that was presented by the LL Bean catalog is one of the main obstacles toward people reaching equality, or at least the humanitarian phase. It is a lose-lose situation, because white people, having a "similar-to-me" mindset, would be much more comfortable with black people who dress like them than those who dress differently. In fact, regardless of skin color, we are always more likely to feel comfortable around people who portray an image similar to our own. For example, us college students tend to share a basic "uniform": jeans, T-shirt, flip-flops or sneakers, sweatshirt, etc. Is it untrue to say we would feel slightly uncomfortable around a student who wears a 3-piece suit to class everyday?
So then to turn to people of color wearing "white" clothes- what message do people perceive from it? Is this person trying to be white? Are they trying to gain approval from the majority? Do they simply enjoy wearing khakis, boatneck sweaters, and loafers?
It upsets me that people of color do have to consider what message their attire portrays more than white people do. I am a true believer in the power of dressing nicely, that 1) it makes the wearer more confident and 2) people see you in a more respectful manner. And at this point in my life, mainly because I'm in a college setting, I don't see many people who are really put together when I'm walking to class. And when I do, I always notice them. In this sense if I were to see a girl or guy of any color dressed nicely walking down College Ave, I'd instantly have respect for that person. And their skin color has nothing to do with that perception- I just think it's great that there are people who aren't lazy bums and roll out of bed and walk straight to class.
Overall, I've never thought about how people of color perceive other people of color who dress "whitely". Just like we all have equal rights as individuals, we all have the right to our own taste in fashion and our racial identity should never create barriers to that.
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Let’s all be honest and claim that when you see black people in an LL Bean catalog it really doesn’t catch your eye, but when you really think about how many black people do you really see wearing LL Bean? I just feel that people in place to make decisions regarding publications are always wrong. If they put black people in TV shows, black people complain they the black actors are “2nd grade characters or depict criminals.” Yet, when black people are not put in ads or shows, people complain and the NAACP is calling for a federal investigation. I just feel as if lets forget about what is politically correct, and attempt to portray real life as best as possible.
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oliviak Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:21 pm
I feel that is the problem with society today. I think people have been so brainwashed and conformed to society that they put people in categories. We are trying to pull people out of the mindset that only a particular race is "supposed" to be seen in a particular light. And the LL.Bean ad for example, what is the big deal with African Americans being placed in the ad, are they too not Americans, I mean seriously? LL.Bean is an American brand, no? We need to open our minds and see past the typical image for a person, we cannot place people in categories.
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I do not think this is a win or lose situation. Jesse Jackson is doing what he is supposed to do helping people no matter what race they are. I think that was good of him to reach out to the poor white community because we need more of that. We have a lot of people who are helping out their own race, which is great, but I think they would be doing a lot more good if they were helping out people of other races. This class is meant to allow people to speak their minds on these issues and get us to think about things that we would not necessary have thought about before. Like looking at the LL Bean photos, yeah sure they may not be the stereotypical black people, but I think LL Bean was just trying to incorporate them to market towards the black community.
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Based on these questions and what has been covered in class, I don’t really believe that there is any ‘win’ when it comes to race and race relations. The more I sit through Sam’s classes, the less I feel I understand what race relations are really about. Maybe that means I’m at the reversal stage and am just sick of talking about it. More honestly, I’m just annoyed at how much we talk about the topic of race but still seem to be getting nowhere. Granted, I am a type A personality and scientifically oriented so I like having clear-cut solutions. Race and culture get more complex the more we talk about them.
I got into some very heated debates with a friend about his very blatant racist views and pointed out that he in fact had two black friends. He response was, “but they don’t act black”. But they are black. This is similar to the black LLBean models Sam showed us in class. First: what makes actions and mannerisms ‘black’ or ‘white’? How we act is just as much influenced by our surroundings as our race and culture. Just because you act a certain way doesn’t erase your race. If you’re raised in an upper class suburban area, you’re going to have different mannerisms that someone who has been raised in an urban city area. Mix kids from both school districts and you can pick out who is from what school not based on race but on mannerisms. Second: How much does it really matter? Who says you have to stick with whatever culture you’ve been born with and fall into their stereotypical mannerisms. And this goes in numerous racial directions.
Leading nicely into our last discussion about affirmative action, Obama’s comment about how his girls should never benefit from affirmative actions supports my above point. We’re so obsessed with race; we’re missing some other huge social factors.
In High School there were many stereotypical niches that people tried to fit into. Goth, prep, theater geek, band nerd, jock, hick, etc. Hick is classically as a white, unsophisticated male who lives in a rural area. Can hick be defined as a race? A culture? Can we classify ‘black’ or ‘hispanic’ in the same category? In my gender psychology class we have talked about the idea of ‘doing gender’, based on the idea that gender is an idea created by society, and not necessarily biological. Can we ‘do race’ as well? I stopped wearing hoop earrings when I started working at the YWCA because I felt like I was stepping on the toes of people who were Hispanic. It doesn’t really make sense but I always got the impression they thought I was another white girl attempting to fit in.
Where is the line drawn and where is it blurred over? If there is no right answer, then why are there so many wrong ones?
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Jessie Jackson is clearly not in the Humanitarian stage of race relations. Pseudo-communitarian, as Sam said, is where he would fall. This assessment is in no way offensive, for people must pass through pseudo-communitarian before settling at humanitarian. Also, in this case, the label certainly fits.
Jessie Jackson can’t be considered humanitarian because his efforts are disingenuous. Reaching out to all people is noble, if you have the cause of humanity at heart. Doing so otherwise, damages your character to the keen-eyed, but generates an image for everyone else to praise. Such is the nature of politics. But does Jessie Jackson follow this model? His reputation for pontification precedes him.
It doesn’t take much research to reveal Jackson’s character. Before extending his hand in cooperation to Appalachian whites, he’s extensively interacted with other peoples. Respectfully in the past, Jackson has referred to Jews as “Hymies” and New York as “Hymie Town,” a true testament to his racial diplomacy. Even regarding his position of leadership in the black community Jackson reveals his opportunism. He audibly decried Obama for “speaking down to black people,”( perhaps code for not loud or radical enough) threatening to “cut his nuts out.” Certainly the hallmark of a great leader.
See, Jackson is about appearing to care while not actually accomplishing much anything at all. He has hit the mark time and time again. Instead of seriously evaluating the disparaging state of many urban black communities, instead of promoting action or policy that would improve inner-city education, instead of preaching of the value of education, he makes outlandish remarks of the great white bigot keeping everyone down. To show how truly ridiculous his claims have been in the past, Jackson has condemned the White Ranger of Power Rangers for promoting white power. Really? And none of the aforementioned problems took precedence over this?
If Jackson cared more about the people he claims to represent and less about fame, power, and money, I’d be commending him here instead. Unfortunately he behaves differently. He can’t truly be called humanitarian.
Sam used the LL Bean catalog as an example of how someone in the immersion stage would gawk at the depictions of black people. You know this is true. Blacks acting in such a way are considered “white.” They are traitors or they have abandoned their true heritage. All this bullshit comes from those who expect their race to behave a certain way. It is absolutely unacceptable for a black family to where nice clothing? Shorts? Really, I mean who is the one confiding a group of people to a box now. That is the stuff of the immersion stage coming from people a little to obsessed with themselves.
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I agree with the student on the whole LLBean issue.I believe the company was simply trying to appeal to other races. To me those pictures look normal just because the models were African American doesn't mean they wouldn't go hiking or hang out by the lake. Its these common assumptions that is setting our society back and that's why were not making any progress. We need to start thinking as a "whole" in society not by races. When we separate into races that's when we start looking at things like this. We are all people and all different.
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Why does someone need to “win” at all? I don’t think its about winning, or possible to win even if you tried. I agree with Sam when he said something along the lines of, there often is no real answer. But that doesn’t mean it’s not important to ask the questions. Think about it—if race relations in general had a solution, why haven’t we used it yet? Why are there still all of the issues and tensions among racial groups in the United States, much less the entire world? I think the best we can do is work for a push, because it is impossible to win without someone else losing, and that defeats the point of meaningful race relations.
As for the LL Bean catalog, if you truly don’t think it was funny you have to admit it’s at least odd to see the people of color in the catalog. It’s like seeing a white dude doing stand up on BET. It wasn’t a bad thing, but just a little out of place, and that’s what makes it funny.
I’m split with my opinion on Jesse Jackson. I agree with the video blogger on some aspects. I think Jesse Jackson should not be excluded from the Humanitarian stage just because he helps out people of color more than white people. Sam, you say that Humitarians follow any path they are called to. How do you know Jesse Jackson’s call isn’t to his people? To say that he is a Pseudo-Communitarian ignores the fact he went to Appalachia and dwells on his return to help inner city people of color. So, if he was white and did that he would be a Humanitarian? How come it absolutely HAS to cross racial lines, even if people of your race are the ones that need help the most? I’m tempted to say that perhaps some the people who simply cross racial lines in their humanitarian efforts, do so just so they can say, “I’m a Humanitarian.” Race shouldn’t be an issue at all as long as you are helping those that need it. And it is understandable to help your own people first since you lived through it and you know what their needs and drives are. It makes it that much easier to help since you were perhaps at some point in their shoes. If a bunch of white Americans fly over to Ethopia to help out, but know only what they learned in a textbook about the country and its people, that’s not as effective as a person from Ethiopia coming back and truly making a difference using his or her experiences to have a better idea of how he or she can help.
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I love these questions! They are very thought provoking and can be answered in so many different ways. I would first like to address the LL Bean catalogue. I did not think it was particularly funny. I believe that by saying that black people can not or should not dress that way, it is keeping them repressed and forcing them to fit into a “black culture” that they may not have ever experienced or been associated with. Clothing is a way of self expression, and when you dress in most LL Bean clothing it gives an image of being in the upper middle class. I believe Sam touched on this in class but if there were no black people in the catalogue, LL Bean would be looked at as racist. I believe it is insulting to black people to assume they must look a certain way or they are betraying their culture and heritage.
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As for Jesse Jackson, I believe him to be one large contradiction. I think we need to stop focusing on him as much as we do. As Sam said in class, many people would come to hear him speak. He is supposedly a “reverend” but I wonder what he looks like in God’s eyes. He does love his black brothers and sisters, yet he hates others so much. Jesus said the most important commandment is to love God, and the second most important is to love your neighbors. How can he call himself a reverend when he hates so many people? It’s obvious he hates Jews as through the remarks he has made and does not have a strong affinity for whites. I could go on but I’m pretty sure I’m off topic so let me end by saying that I do not care what Jesse Jackson does, because I believe he is already way off base.
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oliviak Reply:
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Jesse Jackson does not "hate" all other people, that notion is bogus. Although he is dedicated to uplifting "black and brown" people who have been oppressed for years, he does not hate other races. If he did have animosity it would be greatly justified, due to the horrible treatment he faced from white people while fighting for civil rights. He is for all people who voices can't be heard , overall he is for the underdog. He "loves his black brothers and sisters" because they have been unloved and unwelcome in American society for so long, and still somewhat today. He is looking out for the cause, give him a break.
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To address the questioning of “winning”, I don’t think there is a clear line that we as humans can cross to say we have won the race battle. I believe it is something humans will always struggle with. I believe it can be better though, which is as close as we will ever get to winning. A few weeks ago a student asked Sam in class what the end goal was. Sam responded that it was conversation. I believe that this is his version of winning. If we can get people to open up and talk about race, then we can finally move closer to discussing the issues of social inequality. Nothing will change unless people have the guts to bring issues to light, and if most people are willing to talk and brainstorm ways to fix inequality in society, then real change can occur at a much faster rate than it would otherwise.
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What does it actually mean to win? Why are we even in competition with one another? I think race is always going to be an issue in this world but maybe it will lighten up over the next few years. I agree that if people are willing to openly talk about race that some of the ongoing issues can be resolved. I don’t even think that there can be an end result because no one will ever see eye to eye, especially different races. The only way to make the world a less racial place is to recognize the issues at hand and work on taking them away.
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