Isn't migration conflict inevitable?

posted by Sam Richards

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34 Responses to Isn't migration conflict inevitable?

  1. Mullabhai says:

    And I have a question for you, the person who asked this question, so if someone came on your land and just took it away, you would tell yourself it happens life isn’t fair? What they did at that period in time was wrong, and I think all the intelligent people learned this from Sam’s earlier lectures, but the point I am trying to say is that if the United States would just go into Mexico and just take their land because we are stronger than them actually give us the right to do that? No, it doesn’t so for me the situation isn’t much different who ever came to this country and actually took over Native American land, and started to work, and establishes themselves here without the consent of Native Americans is the same as a Mexican coming over the border to get a better life. Essentially the people that came and took the Native Americans land first came here because they were having difficulties in their old countries and wanted to start out fresh, isn’t that why immigrants come to the United States now a days? Immigrants play a big role in running this country, so if we didn’t have immigrants legal or illegal half of our products we buy and produce would rise, yet we don’t want this, and we don’t want illegal immigration, so what is the government suppose to do? I am not in any way saying open the gates of the United States to any person, but we can control illegal immigration just so that we can continue living the way we are, because no matter what we do illegal immigration is going to happen, it happens all over the world.

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  2. I completely agree with your comment. The perspective brought up in class is a good one and I understand what is trying to be put out there. However, it isn’t the same situation. It is a different day and age, things like that can’t happen anymore. I am not an expert on that era, but in that point in history people were slaughtered for land all the time. Conquering new lands that way was normal. I do not in any way agree with what happened when the pilgrims came to America. I don’t think it was fair and I don’t think it should ever happen again. I understand the parallel, but I don’t think it’s the same situation.

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    hmc5079 Reply:

    I agree with this comment. Although it was a good example, it is not the same situation today as it was many years ago. I agree when you said that "conquering new lands was normal" back then. Today is a totally different situation and circumstance. Our world is much more developed and our population is growing rapidly. I'm not saying that what happened to the Native Americans was fair either. I just think that showing someone the example of Native Americans and Pilgrims Settlers and comparing it to present day immigration issue would not be very persuasive. Interesting idea, but not totally the same scenario.

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  3. OldGreg8 says:

    First of all, it is the exact same situation. It has nothing to do with a war, nothing to do with who is a stronger country, nothing to do with past versus present. Like you said in the video, it is a migration. With a migration there is not always war or conflict. Not always. Yes, there has been instances where war has arisen to due to this sort of conflict of interest, but in our case, war does not seem feasible at this day and age. Okay, so in 1492, a stronger, more developed, more technologically advance, and sicker nation came to the Americas and took over the land. Why were they able to do this? Well for one thing they had guns, they had germs, and they had the mental capacity it took to think selfishly and take what they wanted. That seems to be a lot different than what is going on today, don't you think?

    In terms of "illegal immigration" or "migration" in today's world, the issue is not a complete take over. The issue is not taking land or possessions from the native people. The issue is not one of a manifest destiny. Today's movement of people is solely on an individual basis. Whereas in 1492, it was a national movement. In our society, immigration is strictly based upon one individual, or a family of individuals, looking for a better life. Now, it has been projected that in possible a half century, the number of non-caucasians will outnumber the number of whites in our country. But will a war result? Probably not. The equality of technological advancements keeps anyone from NATIONALLY taking over. Even if some country is slightly less advanced, an advanced, more powerful nation will usually step in to aid the weaker nation.

    There is nothing wrong with searching for a better life. It is human nature. And, especially if it is possible to achieve something better than what you have now, why not go for it? Immigration or migration is bound to happen. It is not the same as before… not because a war will not result but because it is an individual movement. It is a movement of single people or families, not an entire nation or religious sect. There are no ulterior motives other than self-improvement, and the worst thing that will happen is over-population. Hey, here's an idea. If so many immigrants from Mexico wish to come into the United States, Mexico should donate us some land below Texas in order to make more room. That is the fair thing to do. What's another state going to do anyways? It would not hurt anyone. Shit, I would move there. Sunshine in the air, perfume everywhere, girls are everywhere.

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  4. beevee56 says:

    Wow your comment was imbecilic. No offense. So you’re saying we should just step all over whomever it takes to get to the top? On top of that we should just continue to oppress them? "The Native Americans surely tried to tell us not to come in illegally"? Oh yeah, because that term existed back then. If you don’t know your history, the Native Americans were friendly to the Pilgrims. They fed them and taught them their ways of survival in the Americas. Then the illegal immigrants turned their back on them and took over their land.
    Life isn't fair? If you lived in the U.S. for say eighteen years, illegally, and had your wife, your kids, friends, and family here and you were deported back to your native country, would you just sit at the airport handcuffed to the other illegal immigrant by hand and foot and just say "Life isn't fair, oh well"?NO! You wouldn't. So for you to make this claim is just ridiculous. The situations are very much the same.
    If Russia set foot on the U.S. today and said we want to claim your country ours and you can’t live here anymore would it be okay because it happens all the time? What if Russia, England, and France decide that they want to come to America for a better life and start a war against us? There’s no way you can say that the U.S. is too strong and would still defeat them.
    How do you know the U.S. would win the war? The U.S. has not won a war starting with the Vietnam War. The U.S. gained independence from England ,which was the superpower back then, so that proves that even a small "colony" per say could be capable of winning a war against a great superpower.
    If the United States didn’t exploit other countries and didn’t keep them poor and make it impossible for people to live there, people wouldn’t migrate here. The people that come here are poor and it costs over three-hundred dollars to get a Visa to come to the U.S. legally. When you’re living on two to five dollars a day, it’s impossible to even dream about coming here legally. And how can you just sit there with a grumbling stomach as you watch your child starve to death.
    From your tone, it sounds like you’re proud that your forefathers committed genocide in order for you to be standing where you are today. I think it is unfair and that we should at least have some compassion for the people who are trying to make a better life for their family and for themselves. We shouldn’t think “Oh life is not fair,” instead we should try to make a difference somehow. You cannot even begin to understand what an illegal immigrant suffers on their journey here and while living here.
    The American “empire” is strong but no empire exists forever. Take a look at the Roman Empire, a great fleet of soldiers and a huge conquered range of land and yet, the still fell. One day, all of the oppressed countries and probably the rest of the world is going to get tired of being “pushed around” and the American Empire will fall too.

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  5. beevee56 says:

    One more thing, they're not illegal, they're going back to what was taken from them. For example, California, Texas and all the other ones that were mentioned in class. If we didn't take they're land, there wouldn't be illegal Mexicans coming into the U.S.

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  6. Benny6 says:

    I agree that the situation is different now then it was in the fifteen or sixteen hundreds. There was a lot of exploration going on back then and there were super powers fighting for territory. When the Americas were discovered the Native Americans were in the way of claiming the territory for their country. They did not consider themselves to be invading a foreign country with a government and an army. They were taking what they considered to be rightfully theirs because they were the “first” to discover it. There was a battle between the Europeans and the Native Americans and the Europeans won. I think that the major difference is the development of the land. When the Native Americans lived there they lived among nature and did not develop areas or have a single government ruling the entire country. They may have considered a certain area to be their territory but it was not defined and established. Today there is a enforced border and a solid government. The land is developed into cities and suburbs and we are technologically advanced. We have an economy to worry about and a government that offers services to their citizens. If there are illegal immigrants who are not paying taxes then they are leaching off of the government. We are paying for them to get the same benefits that we are. They are not contributing to the cost of roads, police officers, public services, and all other government run organizations. If the amount of people getting let in really depends on the business community as Sam Richards stated then I agree with the process. Why let more people come in when there are not enough jobs to support those who are already citizens of the country? We would be forced to pay for their welfare if they were unable to find a job. I do not find it cold hearted to only allow immigrants in when there is a need for workers. This is probably one of the main reasons they are attempting to come to this country. They want to work. Well, if we do not have jobs to offer them, then why would we have them flood into our country only to not be able to find work or leach off of the money that we have rightfully earned and payed to the government? I do not know a lot about the situations that the immigrants find themselves in but there needs to be regulations in everything in order for our country to remain stable and not resort to chaos. Current immigration is not comparable to the Europeans first discovery of this land. The way of life has changed completely and therefore so has the system of immigration.

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  7. badkarma13 says:

    I see what your saying however the issue we need to consider now is that we did grow too strong. we are now complacent in our status as a world power and so we think we need to run every aspect of our world. we forget that this has always been a problem since the days we came here as pilgrims or legal immigrants. the problem is that we want to control the number of people who come here that we forget just how important it is to make life the best it can be. the fact that we are so ingrained with the idea that we are the best country that we forget that immigration made us so great. so we need to find a way to stop the illegal immigration and make legal immigration a more acceptable way in to the country. the people who have ever tried to get in to this country from the beginning were looking for a better life so if we summarily kick people out to keep our country as is then we lose the greatness and become the military state we all hate.

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  8. comebackid3 says:

    well i can see what your saying it be different about the war thing but either way its still immigration . no matter how you look at it, its people trying to go to a different part from where their coming from. So, just because we fought killed native Americans and Mexicans cant do that doesn't mean its any different if anything it just makes us look that much worse and we just got lucky with the scenario at certain times. now i don't think any illegal immigration is right, because a law is a law and if you break it, then that wrong and thats just the way the government works, but to say its different now is absurd

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  9. Keeble says:

    This guy summed up exactly how I feel about everything we learned this semester. Sam showed us some pretty crazy stuff. One of my fellow peers pointed out that what we all learned was very depressing, and I can’t help but agree one hundred percent with him. Regardless, the student in this video said one key thing that I wish Sam would have mentioned at least once this semester, and that is that life isn’t fair. It is as simple as that. I am so much better off than those illegal immigrants that are trying to make a better life for themselves, and it’s not because of anything I have done. It is because life isn’t fair. People just need to see that. I am so thankful for everything I have, but I know plenty of other graduating seniors that are so much better off than me. Why are they better off than me? They are better off than me because life isn’t fair. I know a kid who is graduating this month, and his starting salary is a bit over one hundred thousand dollars. His mother works in the real estate sector, and she was able to give him a job. He will work minimal hours, and eventually be a millionaire. That’s not fair. I know I’m a harder worker and I know I am smarter than him. I just need to accept the fact that he was born into this good fortune, just as I was born into a much better situation than those Mexicans who are trying to enter the United States of America.
    I also wanted to bring up Sam’s comparison of Mexicans entering the United States to Pilgrims entering. It makes no sense. The Pilgrims were much more superior than the Native Americans. They had guns, and killed the Native Americans with those guns. If the Mexicans were more powerful than us, then they could do to us what the pilgrims did to the Native Americans. But they aren’t more powerful than Americans, so it really doesn’t matter. We have the power, so we can dictate who we let in and out of this country. Some may say that’s not fair. I would definitely agree with them on that, but it doesn’t matter, because life’s not fair. If our immigration policy is dictated by big businesses; so be it. When we need workers, I say, “Come on into America.” When we don’t need workers, I say, “Get the hell out.”
    I’ve worked with a man from Cuba, who came here legally. He is a great guy, and made life so much better for his family, but he wasn’t able to bring his relatives over to the United States. I feel for him and his situation, but there isn’t anything I can do about it. Life’s just not fair sometimes.

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  10. it is a different day and age, and yeah life is not fair but, what we did was morally and ethically incorrect. What would you do to start over a new life? you would do whatever it took, even if it went against your beliefs. I feel that it was inevitable in the long run. People started finding this brand new land to start over.

    People say that they would do anything to get those moments back in the day to change something. Well for a lot of the people coming over on the may flower and other 2 boats, don't really remember the names, thats what they were looking for. Everyone deserves a second chance. but after that you are screwed.

    I like the little videos, i though tthey were cleverly made

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  11. That video Sam showed that compared the pilgrims to immigrants of today did put things in an interesting perspective. But think about it the "natives" now would be the actual Native Americans then and I'm sure you would be feeling the same way about immigrants. But if you think about it from the point of being a descendant of the pilgrims, then you would be the immigrant and you would want people to let you into their land so you can have the same opportunities for a better life. It is all just a matter of which perspective you use. I agree with the guy making this comment about the fact that they are not identical situations, but I think that the reasons are different, not because we went to war.

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  12. pcommerford says:

    With this, it is the same thing… People keep trying to make up excuses for the U.S.'s actions, even if they are clearly not correct. I do believe that the U.S. has made many great decisions and taking many correct actions (otherwise, we wouldn't be here and in such good terms) but we have to accept that we are not perfect, we make mistakes. Stopping immigration and allowing it to happen only when is best for us I believe is the most unfair thing ever.

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  13. pcommerford says:

    The Native Americans DID NOT say anything about "illegal immigrant pilgrims". Not only because they clearly did not have a term like that back then, but also because they did the absolute opposite, they welcomed the pilgrims, fed them, and gave them everything they could. It was not until the pilgrims started to take their land that the Native Americans started to hate them (no shit, who wouldn't?). Now, with this said, if I came into your house and pointed at you with a gun and said, "leave, this is my house now", would you really just leave and think, "it's okay, this person is clearly stronger than me (hence the gun) and she can keep my house because 'life isn't fair'"… really, would you be okay with it? I don't think so.

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  14. pcommerford says:

    So how about, besides being happy that we have what we have thanks to many decisions the U.S. has made, why don't we also realize that they also make very bad ones, like controlling immigration according to our needs. Immigrants deserve every right to join into our little "group". We had our chance to start a new life at one point and nobody stopped us; who the hell are we to stop anyone now?
    After all, this IS the "land of the free", right? Why should it cost anything to join it?

    P.S. Regarding the whole “if you want to come to America, speak English” people: Just so you know, the probabilities of your own family members that first came here, to America, being able to speak English are very slim. So, stop discriminating the rest, they’ll learn it eventually. If you still don’t want to see what I’m saying, how about you learn a language before you go to the country, even if it is to just visit… I mean, that IS what you’re trying to enforce on people that come here.

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  15. samj113 says:

    How is this situation different? We come to a land and take it away from those that have it already because we can, because we want to be 'king of the mountain' and we have more power. That doesn't make it right at all, though. I agree with you on one thing, life is definitely not fair. This has been proven evident by the countless amounts of Native Americans now living in trailers because they have been constantly beaten down by this nation of 'patriots'. Perhaps if this land really was desolate and nobody occupied it, I could see how the two situations are different. The fact that Native Americans had tribes, had lives, had homes, and we essentially just bulldozed over all of this and forced those that survived the attack to live in shoddy, low income neighborhoods is very much the same situation you described. If the Mexican army did attack us, they would most likely not defeat us in a war (simply because the United States spends the most money out of any other country on their military…) but if they were stronger, or if the rest of the world combined attempted to take our land, would you still say that life is unfair and that's the way it goes? If hundreds of thousands of your friends and families are killed through genocide, I have a hunch you would feel that the two situations seem to parallel each other…

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  16. magicman2010 says:

    That cartoon that Sam let us watch in class on Thursday about the pilgrims moving in onto the native Indians land was somewhat of an eye-opener that I never really paid any attention to. The English and other white people have slowly spread across the globe and taken over land with force by killing and spreading disease among the natives. This far from right, but they justify it and proceed with their plans. This is identical to what happened in the movie Avatar. The "white people" which includes the military are searching for a rare rock and because it is rare. Its value is set on an extremely high scale. These people, our people are willing to kill an entire race of living beings and also willing to destroy and entire planets ecosystem just to obtain these rock deposits. This movie sent many political messages but one these compares their world with our "dying" planet. Honestly, we never think about it, but we've destroyed our land (the land that has been stolen from the natives) and are running around the world to achieve other rare products that we can live without.

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  17. magicman2010 says:

    For example, the diamonds from Sierra Leone, Do we really need this? So much time and money is spent on ridiculous things it’s really not surprising to know that we have slavery, poverty, sickness, early death, and other forms of suffering on our planet. Also, what really had me thinking while watching Avatar was the bond that the people shared for each other. If one had sex with the other then a bond would form and they would be together forever. In our world that unheard of almost! We’re so use to having sex with multiple partners we don’t realized the harm we do to ourselves. We get scared when we speak about long term relationships and we all (especially the guys) want to be the alpha male who runs through many attractive females from various areas of race.

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  18. magicman2010 says:

    I’m positive that before we had buildings and technology many years ago that people didn’t use sex as entertainment as much as they do today. I’m not excluding myself out of this but I wish I had someone, just one woman I could come home to. But what do I know about these things, I’m just a kid. We would live in a better world if everyone cared about everyone in some manner, but that just won’t happen. Greed comes in the way and because of this, people have to watch out or look out for their families because it’s very dangerous on our planet.

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  19. So, this doesn’t really have to do with this post at all, but I missed Tuesday’s lecture because I went on a field trip with my roommate’s criminal justice class to Pennsylvania’s State Correctional Institution at Rockview. What an eye opener! We entered the prison and walked through the yard and literally brushed shoulders with prisoners as we headed toward A Block. We entered the block and walked around with prisoners. It was nothing like the prisons I had seen in the movies or on TV. The cells doors hung wide open and prisoners mingled at tables in common areas outside the cells. It was an odd feeling being so close to prisoners convicted of rape, armed robbery, and murder without a barrier or anything physical object separating us. Most of the prisoners are pretty friendly which I contribute to the rare occasions when they get to interact with individuals from the “outside” world. We entered the block which housed sex offenders. I noticed that this block housed a greater percentage of white inmates. The females in our group were sexually harassed as we walked through the block side-by-side with rapists and child molesters. At the end of our tour, we got to spend an hour with two lifers – Henry Smolarski and Scott Dougherty. They told us the story of their crime, their conviction, and the years they have already spent in prison. Smolarski murdered a innocent bystander with a kitchen knife in South Philadelphia after Smolarski was mugged for $500 which he planned to use to buy hard drugs. He explained to us how he had changed and he did not deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison. As he the tears rolled down his cheeks, he told us how he felt deep regret and guilt for murdering the innocent young man and that he did everything twice – once for himself and once for his vicitim. Scott Dougherty was also a murdered who was spending the rest of his life behind bars. Dougherty felt that he should not have to spend the rest of his life in prison because of the great changes and progress he has made throughout his 26 years in prison. He claimed to have drawn the blue prints for the Forestry Building at Rockview and belonged to the Lifers’ Association which supports groups such as Big Brothers, Big Sisters. The way I see it, the lives these two murderers have taken are never going to come back. Why do they feel they should get a second chance? An eye for an eye. These guys are murderers. They should of gave them the chair. They have taken innocent lives. I am sorry that tax payers have to pay to keep these murderers alive.

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    kmh12 Reply:

    i read your post and feel compelled to comment. first, let me preface this by saying that i believe in strict criminal punishment and even corporal punishment in some cases. however, in the case of henry smolarski, i'm wondering if he told you that he is now nearly 50 years old and committed his crime when he was barely 16. he had been mugged and thought that he was going to fight his attacker. as it turns out, it was a case of mistaken identity and an innocent man's life was lost. keep in mind that he grew up in a tumultuous and abusive home with little to no positive guidance and when it came to his trial, there was no money for adequate defense of a minor. these are not excuses, just trying to paint the whole picture for your readers.

    now, think about this in terms of yourself. this is all relative, obviously, but, what if you were held responsible for the mistakes you made when you were 16? then, after being imprisoned for almost 34 years have no chance at freedom, at a life. i'm not saying that each criminal deserves a second chance, but in this particular case that you have referenced, where the inmate has clearly gone through rehabilitation and bettered himself in the worst conditions possible, it's disheartening that you can write with such insensitivity. it's easy to label someone as a murderer and say that they should get the chair without knowing their story, but to meet someone like henry and hear what he had to say and still write something like that is quite different.

    look, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. that's what makes this country so great. however, it would be nice if when communicating your opinion in a public forum, especially when it is in regard to the worth of someone's life, you showed some humanity, or at least some respect.

    i happen to be henry's niece and know him to be one of the most resilient, supportive, loving and compassionate men i have ever met. and this is the man he made himself while he has been incarcerated. i met him when he was already in jail and he will likely die in jail. these are the realities that my family and i have to face and deal with daily. all i'm trying to say is that while you're enjoying college and the life that you've been afforded, please don't discount the lives of others, particularly my uncles' just so that you can get some points for a blog post.

    and just as a side note regarding the money of the taxpayers, the costs to have inmates on death row and ultimately executed are often just as exorbitant as keeping them as a lifer or allocating money to proper counseling while they are incarcerated. this is particularly true in the state of pa.

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  20. ajb81 says:

    I agree with your statement that the two situations are very different. It seems that in history, there has always been conflict between people of different lands, and for the most part, it always ended in war. As time progressed humans were able to start solving disagreements through treaties and things like that that, but once the issue gets too out of hand, war is inevitable. We have come a long way as a society but we still have a lot to learn since we still end up fighting and killing each other over issues that might have solvable with negotiation.

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  21. jerzzeygurl says:

    It is hard to tell whether or not we are wrong with immigration. Ultimately, we only need immigrants when we need workers. I don’t really know how immigration works, but I think it needs to be regulated. There is no need for our country to have people come in that doesn’t work. Unemployment is already high and we don’t need outside people competing for jobs. However, immigrants work the jobs that Americans do not want. How many Americans will pick vegetables in a field at low cost?
    My biggest concern is education. As a future teacher, I worry about the funding to school districts. Even if a child is from an illegal immigrated family, they are still entitled to a free public education. Legal citizens pay taxes that fund our public schools. In each district, there are controversies over the townships budget and how much of it goes to the schools. I believe in the right to education for all children, but I think it comes at a cost. It is a controversial subject because the kids are not at fault for coming to this country. Also if we do not provide them with an education they will become a burden to society. So, what are we to do?
    We can attempt to control our borders, but we don’t have much control over it. We can physically control who comes in to an extent. I have never given much thought to immigration other than when I see Mexicans standing outside 7-11 waiting for someone to pick them up for work. I am afraid to get out of my car when I see them standing there. This may have to do with ethnocentrism in that I am only familiar with the legal people that live in my area. New people moving in to our country I something we cannot control. From an economic point of view, we only need people for work. Economics are what runs our country and our lives. We don’t need people if we do not have work for them. We are all immigrants and it is not equitable to say that other people cannot come here. However, for the benefits of our own lives, we need to consider our lifestyles. If our country becomes too crowded and competition for jobs becomes more difficult, we won’t have the lifestyle we desire. We have to be selfish when it comes to our families because we want the best for them. Why should a family that does not pay taxes benefit from their children getting a free education? Should we help those that are not paying to our nation’s taxes? There are no simple answers to immigration.

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  22. grt5009 says:

    I think the rise to what this guy is talking about has a lot to with America's place and power within a global landscape. I think hes completely right that say Mexico couldn't just come in and take over America, because of America's power. When the pilgrims colonized the Americas there was some fight from the Native Americans however the vast majority of the land was not populated with people. I think a more relevant situation to apply this to is the immigrants that came through Ellis Island and the many Italian, Polish, Russian, etc communities that were set up. When many of these people came over they were treated poorly (like many illegal immigrants are today) and separated into their own communities (for the most part still the same). Many of these immigrants who came through Ellis Island or otherwise were used in factories to manufacture goods at lower costs, although they provided the United States with less expensive goods, and they braved the conditions that no one else would, they were never treated fairly. I think the basic landscape of immigration hasn't changed in a very long time, and I think its inevitable for people to show hatred towards immigrants when technically they might be helping the economy of your country more than hurting it.

    I think a clear example of how people will never give immigrants a break can be seen in tourism. Now tourism helps an economy, but what do all the locals say about tourists? "Oh those tourist come in here make a mess of everything, crowd up our city, etc" Its the same way with State College "townies" you can't deny that State College would be the same if there wasn't a college campus and there weren't students. However many locals think that the college kids are detrimental to the town, and wish for a time when students aren't here.

    At the heart of immigration problems, I think lies general discontent with people from another country. I don't think people understand the cheap labor situation and that many immigrants are willing to do work that citizens aren't willing to do.

    I think a good point to bring up is, if the native americans were a stronger force they would have deterred the settlers from well settling here in the first place. However now Native Americans are thrown under the rug, and no one really thinks about them anymore. I think many people associate letting too many immigrants in and associate that with declining American pride. Immigration is a hot topic but a lot of people don't realize undocuemented workers are what keep commodity prices down, and with out those less expensive commodity prices many Americans will be a lot more upset.

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  23. jor5107 says:

    I mean I don’t think it was ever a legit and fair war between the pilgrims and the native Americans. From the beginning, the whites or pilgrims always felt that they are just superior and deserve to take over but then when other people want to go and do the same thing then they freak out. I think its stupid that people think like that. Like what makes them any better? They complain that the current immigrants right now are illegal but white were really legal when they decided to just take over the US. Ok so they fought and what not but how does that make it okay? I guess what I am trying to say is why is it such a big deal now and why do white people think that they can just sit there and determine who gets to come in and just discriminate? Ok so they say they are taking white people’s jobs away but really you are going to tell me that a white person would sit there and do the jobs Mexicans or Hispanics do? Yeah I highly doubt that. And even those people who complain about illegals or Hispanics or whatever I mean they sure take advantage of it when they just use them to do some kind of construction work for them so I just think people who say that are really big hypocrites. And yeah times were different but and like yeah the US is strong. I mean I understand that they can just take whatever they want I mean even with the war going on Americans think that they can just go where ever they want and get whatever they want. They want the oil so they go and get it. Does anyone else see that as being wrong? Its almost like Americans will do whatever they want whenever they want simply because they want. I don’t know I just feel that a lot of people are so quick to jump at making sure that illegal immigration stops by like saying that they would do it legal but like did any of anyone’s ancestors do that legally? Like why do people just think that they can just change all the rules around when they were the first people to do that themselves. A lot of those people who immigrate do it to just try and find a better future for themselves or their family. How is that not the same thing as what white people did when they came to America? Didn’t they come and reproduce and what not and fill the entire country with their kids? I mean complaining about stealing jobs? Tell me how many Mexicans or Hispanics have taken big jobs that are meaningful that do not require manual work?

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  24. He's right- it is not the same situation. As Sam has told us, the European invasion into the Americas has resulted in the longest lasting, most devastation genocide in human history. Those "dirty Mexicans" that are crossing the border and "taking our jobs" and "ruining our economy" are most DEFINITELY not wantonly killing innocent Americans in order to find their freedom.

    I was going to begin my post exclaiming that those who believe it is right to block out the illegal immigrants are selfish, greedy, heartless, ignorant jerks. But the truth is, we are all selfish, greedy, heartless, ignorant jerks. It is human nature to want what is best for oneself, even if it means someone else gets hurt. If some of you are reading this post (though I highly doubt it!), you may be saying, "Hey! I'm not a completely selfish, greedy, heartless, ignorant jerk! I care about people! I do!" Yeah. Ok. Most of us here at Penn State are not on scholarship. Most of us are paying around $100,000 in tuition and room and board in order to attend Penn State. Why? Because we are greedy and determined to get what we want. We COULD go to a community college and still get a degree and donate thousands upon thousands of dollars to people who need it more than we do. Children in Africa who are dying of starvation are WAYYYYY more important than the couple cases of beer one buys for a weekend of partying. Do you really NEED those Uggs when babies in third world countries are dying because their communities lack healthcare? I could go on an on and maybe come up with more depressing and intelligent comparisons but at the moment I want to see the fireworks. So.

    Okay, back to what Sam said about us benefitting from the most devastating and long lasting genocide in human history. Most of the people in the class reacted like, "ohh it wasn't my fault!" or "ohh what do we do? There's nothing we can do about it!" Well you know what? If you actually put your heart into helping others, you will eventually find some way to help. Maybe not THE solution, but a way to make their lives better and make right the wrongs we're benefitting from. We are all selfish, greedy, heartless, and ignorant to some degree.

    OK so back to what we're supposed to be writing about. Yes, the stronger country with the bigger guns wins. Yes, for most of the conflicts in human history, the winner takes all and the loser has to just suck it up. Who gives a shit about their babies or their dying peoples or whatever. The winner wins and survives. The loser is shit.

    To those who believe that it is ok to block out the illegal immigrants because this is "our" land and "our" resources- Is that the way you want to live your life? Stepping on the smaller people just because you can? Taking what you want simply because you want it? Taking wayyy more than you need because no one has the power to stop you?

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  25. pcommerford says:

    I think you are trying way too hard to keep looking at this as if the U.S. was always right, no matter what they are doing. I love the U.S. and I understand why it is the best at many things, but not all. One thing I cannot stand is when people say that "America is the best country in the world and every other country looks up to us" (which I've heard, sadly enough, more than enough times). Have you not been to other countries? I can tell you now, not every country loves us and looks up to us, many actually hate us and think we’re actually stupid (which is exactly what most of us think of them because we have never seen them). Try and see what else the world has to offer before making your mind up so strongly. Being patriotic is great and I look up to it, but there’s a difference between being patriotic and being a total moron.

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  26. We are all the same. Immigrants, legal or not, deserve the same rights as everyone else. Many immigrants argue that the United States was found and built by immigrants but those who claim respect have no voice. Most people have no idea how hard it is to move to another country. Learning a new language and adapting to a new culture are one o the hardest obstacles one can face. I believe that experiencing immigration is the only way for people to understand what immigrants go through. Watching your parents quit their jobs, sell all their belongings and leave the rest of their family can be an amazing understanding of how determined people are to have a better life. Immigrants move to the United States hoping they are able to make money and have more freedom. But they receive a lot more than that

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  27. GeeSarah says:

    I really liked the immigration lecture thus far (and no, I’m not just saying that because Graham Spanier showed up and we got to hear Sam sing the blues, though those were definitely bonuses that made it way more fun to be there.) when asked about my opinions on immigration, I am often in the awkward position of having to say that I don’t have an opinion. It’s not that I don’t “feel some kind of way” about immigration, it’s just that I don’t think I know enough to really form an educated opinion. Any opinion I have at this point is the sum of a lot of overheard arguments and skimmed articles in the New York Times. I don’t have enough unbiased information to make a good opinion. Which is not something I’m proud of, but there it is.
    I like that Sam is presenting both sides of the story, and the question that this guy points out is really interesting: if the people who are immigrating now could fight us for the land, would they? When the pilgrims and early settlers came here they waged war on the Native Americans and they won, which is why America is how it is today, namely a predominately white country where Native Americans live in poverty. If the Mexicans and other immigrants moving in today could do that to us, would that be fair? Should might make right? I guess this question would apply more if more of the immigrants moving here today were poor, but according to Sam’s lecture, the majority of the (legal) immigrants are coming from wealthy backgrounds and bringing that wealth with them to the United States. It’s difficult, and I think dangerous, to compare immigration today to immigration then because the parallels take place in completely different time periods.
    Another interesting point that I think I need to think more about is the difference between the reality of old immigration and the nostalgic view of immigration. Like, I would like to believe that the story about “hard work and coming to America for a better life” but in reality, they drove Native Americans off their land, killed them, oppressed them, and eventually drove them out to the worst land in the United States. It’s hard to be sympathetic to that. Then again, my ancestors were those immigrants, and they had nothing, like REALLY nothing. My family came from Ireland and worked in coal mines under horrible conditions. That was their reality, and I can’t discount it. I guess the trick is in finding a balance of the two ideas, which I think is the lesson we’re supposed to learn from every lecture in this class: balance.

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  28. melzipants1 says:

    I can see where he is trying to come from, but I feel like he might have missed what Sam was doing by talking about the Native Americans and the Puritans. This wasn’t about war at all; the example was to show that we are stopping people from doing what our ancestors did so many years ago. We are stopping people from trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Our ancestors took away the Native American’s land and said it was ours, but there was no one to police our ancestors. They just took it and said that it was their right because G-d brought them there. We also took away land during the 1800’s that people we call Mexicans were living. We have taken people’s native lands and we now expect them to not come into this country illegally? It just doesn’t make sense. Technically our ancestors are illegal immigrants and shouldn’t have been allowed to settle here without having to pay something. Also, the Native Americans were peaceful with the Puritans for a little while until the Puritans got greedy and started building and taking way the lands of the Native Americans.

    The illegal immigrants of today and our ancestors are very similar, except, most of today’s illegal immigrants aren’t trying to take land away from Americans, they are trying to earn more money for their families and give them a better life. That is all they are trying to do. Their country isn’t giving them the money or the life they need to survive, and they don’t have the money to pay for all the costly things to become a legal immigrant. So sneaking in is their only option. They will work the jobs that most Americans would never do and they love it because even those jobs pay more than what they would have gotten in their home country. They are just trying to have a better life. That is what our ancestors did and what people from Europe did also.

    The people from Europe were dirt poor, but some were still allowed in. Yes, some were sent back, but we had very poor immigrants living here in the United States. They aren’t any different from today’s illegal immigrants. The only thing that is different is that to become an American citizen, you need lots of money. It is very expensive to become a citizen of the US and it also takes time. Like Sam said, illegal immigrants also are great for big businesses and large farms because they will work for little pay. Illegal immigrants today are a product of our ancestors’ illegal immigration. We are stopping the people who are doing the same thing our ancestors did, just trying to find a better life.

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  29. alm5467 says:

    I feel that at that time they truly were essentially the same thing as illegal immigrants are today be the fact that there were no laws in place at that point in time means that it did not count for them at that time. I want to say that yes, I agree that what happened in the past with the pilgrims and indians was a negative, awful thing because they put people out of homes and land. I will not argue that it was a terrible thing but I do not know that it is the same because there were no laws in place to stop what was happening. Morally was it wrong? Yes. But Legally was it wrong? No at that point.

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  30. mlav3391 says:

    I have mixed views about the whole concept of illegal immigration. On one side i agree with it and on the other I disagree. People are trying to come into our country to better their lives, they want to come to this country so they can have a better life than theirs in their country. I know this because my house keeper’s parents were illegal immigrants. She was taught from a very young age that she had to work hard to make her life better. My house keeper is one of the most hard working people I know, and i could not imagine my life without her in it. Although these people are doing something “illegal” i can understand why they are doing it. They just want more opportunities. The fact that immigrants are fighting to get into this country should be enough flatter for us American citizens, but the fact that people are getting arrested for it is just messed up. Yes I believe that people should have to follow rules and do the right thing in order to get into this country, but it shouldn’t take so long to become a citizen and it shouldn’t cost so much money.
    The reason that people try to come into this country illegally is because of the time and the money. These people aren’t looking to do something illegal, but it is just the easiest way to do it. They would rather take the risk in doing it illegally and get into the country than waste the time and money doing it the right way. I personally think it is a little sad that we are still faced with the issue of illegal immigrants because we should have found a solution but now and the fact that we haven’t is sad.
    There is always good and bad that come out of every situation, but the fact that most illegal immigrants want to come into the country to better their lives and work hard is a beautiful thing. And the fact that we won’t and don’t let them into our country until they pay a certain amount of money, or wait a certain amount of years is so sickening. I am not saying i have a solution for illegal immigration or that I promote it, but i think it is about time that we start looking for a solution. Illegal immigration is a big topic that is spoken about daily. People should be trying to find something to do about it instead of complaining about the amount of illegal immigrants who are in the country and who are trying to get into the country. Picture yourself as an illegal immigrant, trying to get into a country where you know your life would be better, and them not letting you in. You too would probably do anything to just get into that country. These people really aren’t trying to do anything wrong, they just want a better life than they have now.

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  31. McLovin8293 says:

    I think this is a not well thought out statement that justifies our right to be on this land because of Darwinism. Our ancestors were obviously irrational and anybody with the mindset that we can take this land because we are capable of doing it is selfish. If Mexicans started coming into California or Texas and killing off people, claiming their houses, I'm sure Texans wouldn't be saying "survival of the fittest." It is not how people should be operating. Also, we do not just raid countries because we are capable of taking their land and increasing our power. These people resemble our ancestors who immigrated here very closely, and the treatment they receive from the people in our country is violent and disgusting. Apparently, there is benefits along with negatives of having immigrants and we cannot necessarily allow our population to double, but they are people too. Most immigrants are honest, hardworking, and compassionate. It saddens me to see people rant about them and rallies which would like to resort to violent resolutions to deal with this issue. There will never be an end to a flow of immigrants and it is not a black and white issue. I don't think there will ever be a solution to the problem but we cannot categorize immigrants all as bad and be close minded to the benefits they bring.

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  32. mtc5156 says:

    I agree with this comment. The example of the pilgrims coming over and taking land from the Indians was a good example, but it was a different time. Taking lands was normal then. Today is a totally different story. The population keeps growing and growing, the circumstances today are definitely different than they were back then. I do not think that what happened to the Native Americans was fair. However comparing to today’s immigration problem did not totally convince me of anything. Don’t get me wrong, they are similar situations but the time period was totally different. So I think that you can’t really base today’s issue off of what went on back then.

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