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209579 Responseshttp://www.racerelationsproject.org/2010/04/what-are-our-gods-thinking/What+are+our+gods+thinking%3F2010-04-09+01%3A45%3A52Sam+Richards to What are our gods thinking?
Okay, I'm not sure how to begin my response to this, but I "feel some kind of way" about this notion, as Sam might say, and I am going to try to put my feelings into words. I consider myself a religious person and, though I also consider myself to be open and willing (and wanting!) to speak with people of other religions, backgrounds, and even those who do not know what they believe in and those who do not believe in any God, a big part of me is made up of my incredibly strong sense of belief in a God who watches over us all day and night, who never sleeps, and who ultimately desires the absolute best for each one of us. I simply cannot understand the possibility that there couldn't be a God, and any counter-arguments I have listened to and heard (even from people I deeply respect) have only served to fuel my fire and give me a greater sense of belief in God. I do know, however, that people's beliefs are all different and they tend to be shaped by the life experiences people have and what they know. I would argue – LOOK around you. Look at the absolute magnitude and beauty and amazing images that surround you every moment of every day. Think for just one moment about the miracle that IS life, about the miracle that you wake up and breathe and live. For argument's sake, I could hear a non-believer saying that he or she could argue that he or she does not believe in God because of the magnitude of suffering, sin, and despair that exists in the world, but I think that is a defeatist's point of view. Think about it – I mean really think about it, the thinking that I truly believe Sam wants us to exercise after attending his lectures. There has to be a point to what we are doing, a deeper meaning to the actions we make every day, repercussions for the lives we lead and the decisions we so choose. If not, why are we here? I am not trying to shift into a more philosophical defense of why God exists, but I felt it was necessary to include a short beginning of why my belief is so strong and why it pains me to hear those who have lost God or who simply do not believe. Each person is entitled to his or her opinion, of course, but I think it can be difficult to understand the reasons why others think the way they do (especially if your belief is grounded in what you know is a firm foundation). God Himself is not meant to be understood or analyzed – He is Who He is and faith means believing that without the most concrete proof. Proof takes away from what faith means. Sometimes, Sam's lectures offend me, and an example is in reference to religion. I do not think everything is funny and I do not think it should be treated as such. When Sam compared Saddam Hussein's picture to a picture of "Jesus", I think that crossed a line. Even if people do not believe in Christianity, Jesus is a historic figure and other religions uphold Him as a good man who performed good deeds and spread the word of God. Why was that necessary? Sometimes, getting a reaction from an audience is not enough to justify an action. … Continued in 2nd post
Better yet, how are you so certain your ‘God’ is real? There is absolutely no proof there is a God or gods, yet people are so completely sure one exists. You even comment on the popular line that God is not meant to be understood or analyzed. Don’t you think that if you were sitting down making up a god, that would be the first clause you would put into the religion since that is a pretty flawless argument which required no evidence to back up. There is the same amount of evidence saying there is a god and there isn’t a god, so to be completely sure there is a god is ludicrous.
What about all those other religions that have multiple gods, completely different from your one God? Don’t you think those people are nuts having 100 different gods? Of course it is…. But what is so different about their gods vs. your god. Both of you have the same amount of proof you are right, which is zero. I don’t know your religion, however some religions say those who don’t believe in their religions set of standards, they are going to hell. That’s an awful lot of people who are going to hell.
The point of iunlearn’s comment talking about the picture of Jesus was to show you how political religion is. If Jesus was black, the world would be a much different place, don’t you think. I have a feeling the Europeans would have constructed a different holy figure to follow that looked a little more like them.
You also talk about how we need to be here for a reason. That is what many religions play off of, because if you think about it… why are we here? It’s nice to feel important. People are always going to think, “well, what happens next when I die?”. And it’s a morbid thought to think that you just rot in the ground like everything else. And that’s where religion comes in—it plays into the fear of death. People want to think that when they are put into the ground, life doesn’t stop there—but is there much of a difference from humans and animals? Probably not, but I understand some people need it.
And you are a perfect example of how happy you are that you found God. Maybe you’re one of those people who needs a God, which is fine with me as long as you don’t become a ‘warrior of god’ like some extremists do. It’s just a natural trait of humans. Even Native Americans have constructed there forms of gods, when they had no communication with the rest of the world. With that being said, for people to be so certain there is a god, just isn’t right.
…Continued from 1st post.. In reference to this lecture in particular, when Sam shifted to talking about "God(s)", I admit my curiosity was peaked and I paid very close attention. I was curious to hear what he had to say about it, especially because of some comments he has made in the past. I think sometimes it is frustrating because Sam doesn't really fight a certain fight – he almost just puts all this information out there, but oftentimes without giving us his actual opinion because he wants to get US thinking. Hearing an argument, though, would really trigger more debate and in-class discussion, I think. So what do I think about what he said in class today? Well, I do not think Sam was "calling out our God(s)", rather, I think he was calling out US and calling out our actions as people who believe in God. I think what he was trying to bring home was that if, now that we have been told in class and in our readings of the horrific conditions around the world, and of the slavery that still exists, and we practice a religion that uphold the sanctity of life, treating others the way we would like to be treated, helping the poor, etc., how can we contribute to the wrongdoings happening around the world (in every day ways like buying chocolate)? I think it is unfair, though, to pose it in a way that makes it seem that everything we are doing, every product we are purchasing, every candy bar that we eat, is equivalent to "eating the flesh" of slave workers. I really do. No one can say and I know as little as the next person, but I believe that when this life is over, people will be judged based upon their actions and their motivations (as well as what they did not do). I also believe that people can be truly sorry for their sins, confess them, vow to live better lives, follow through, and truly make atonement for them. When we think about motivation, however, I think that comes into play with the chocolate example. Sam constantly says he is not trying to make us feel guilty, but I guarantee a good number of students in the class felt guilty after watching the video about the slave children making cocoa on the Ivory Coast and either -(a) did not eat their second piece of chocolate at all or (b) felt somewhat guilty while doing so. Thus, the guilt follows suit after many of his comments irregardless if he "wants us" to feel guilty or not. That being said, I think motivation of what people are doing has to do with how they will be judged. If we look at murder and do NOT take motivation into account, it could be presumed that any individual who commits murder is a horrible person who has no respect for human life and who has committed a grave sin and injustice to mankind. If we DO, however, look at motivation, the outcomes can be varied. First, someone who had an intent to kill, should be judged based upon that and the horrific mindset that must go along with that. On the other hand, if someone was defending him/herself in order to stay alive or keep a loved one alive, a person was still killed, but the motivation was completely different. Thus, I do not think it is fair to call people out generally for these actions when oftentimes, even when people hear these things in lecture and in readings, they may not be thinking about them at all hours of the day. ..
I think you have a really good point, that people are not always thinking about these things. But the fact is, we now KNOW these things, and many very religious people will still buy chocolate bars which have been tainted by slavery, and many very religious people will still buy clothes which have been tainted by slavery. For people who are passionate about following their religion word for word, it's hard for me to understand how they can choose to ignore the items they may be purchasing which are tainted with slavery, and still expect to be forgiven. I am not religious by any means, I think religion causes more despair in the world than greatness. One religion thinks it's better than another religion and so the people of both have a war between each other and so on and so on.
CONTINUED FROM POST BELOW…………..However, I do believe in God, a great and powerful creator of everything around us and more. I guess I just don't understand, for people who follow their religion so intimately, why a sin such as buying into slavery–which is esentially what is going on–is expected to be forgiven when their are many other options such as, for example, buying fair trade chocolate; Especially AFTER which the knowledge of slavery is, well, known, and the individual is aware. Yes, of course, one person cannot stop all of the world's problems, but even little things such as buying clothes from WalMart after we know the clothing is tainted by slavery, is a sin which, if continuously repeated, is going to be pretty hard to forgive.
First of all, I’m not going to pretend like I believe in God, but as much as I see what tryingtomatter4 is saying about God and everything they believe, I have to say that I agree with what Sam was saying in class. Since this is not the first time a blog has been about God, I am not going to get into the reason that I do not believe in God or about my background. However, I will say that I am not against the entire idea of God and I was taught through my bringing up and through school that there is a God and that I should believe in one. Regardless of what I believe or not, I completely agree with what Sam was saying in class about God. Whether or not someone believes in God or not, how can anyone believe that all of the pain and suffering in the world is alright in the eyes of God and he lets it happen. If there is really a God then how can he or she allow everything to happen on a daily basis? Like honestly how can someone, like tringtomatter4, say that people who do not believe in God use that, as in people who do not people in God use the pain and suffering as an excuse because they don’t have anything else to use as an excuse. Now to me that is BULLSHIT. Seriously, there are a hundreds of other reasons that I could come up with of why I do not believe in God, but for one major reason is the pain and suffering that goes on on a DAILY BASIS. For people that do not believe in God, that is just one of the many reasons and to say that is an excuse is BULLSHIT.
In terms of what Sam said in class, I agree with Sam completely because pain and suffering is something that nobody wishes upon themselves. Some people say that how can there be a God with all of the deaths that occur, but I believe that something worse than death is pain and suffering continuously. For example, the slaves on the Ivory Coast go through living hell on a daily basis and are not able to do anything about it or else they will be killed. Think about it. If you were a slave on the Ivory Coast and were picking cocoa beans from day to dawn, would you rather continue your life or die? Personally, I would rather die than suffer through the daily shit that I would go through. So with that in mind how can a so called “GOD” allow all of the pain and suffering that occurs to happen and be okay with it?
I agree with you midge4690 but wanted to expand the idea. To begin with, I don't believe in God and would never pretend to. Each of my parents is of a different religion, and I was actually raised Jewish but as soon as I really had a mind of my own I realized how ridiculous religion really is. I know I am probably in a very small minority of people in Soc 119 that thinks this way, but it is something I feel strongly about. It's funny though because sometimes I want to put my ideas out there and enforce them on others in the same way that all of the religious speakers on campus do (or the annoying people handing out bibles, which is also bullshit b/c i bet if I stood outside the HUB handing out atheist material I would probably get in trouble). But either way, back to the original comment, I think its funny when people say things happen because God has a plan. You might as well say things happen because the homeless guy down the street has a plan. I mean what is the basis behind that statement? So God has a plan to make the people of Ivory Coast be tortured so they can harvest the cocoa beans that go into the candy bars that we can buy at the store for less than a dollar? Really? What kind of idiotic plan is that? I mean if you take a step back and think about it- if God is all-knowing and fair, why would he/she have a plan that is so mindless and damaging? I mean if God is really all-knowing he/she would come up with a genius plan that would give everyone who was born, regardless of race/ethnicity, an equal opportunity among EVERYONE to make something of themselves. Obviously, most of the people born in the Ivory Coast do not have that choice. I think it is disrespectful to claim that these poor people suffer because of the plan of a higher being that no one has any evidence exists. And the funny thing is that I'm pretty sure I remember some of the Ivory coast workers in the video talking about God. Okay, like Sam says- I'm rambling now but I mean really how is that they of all people can believe in God still? Well, I think the reason is that if you were in such a horrible, horrible position, where you had to work all day in terrible conditions and get no pay or reimbursement, you would HAVE TO think up some sort of omnipotent, spiritual figure to look towards. Because, God knows (pun intended) no human beings seem to be able to save them at this point…
…Continued from 2nd post… As Sam also said in class, we cannot think about them all the time or else they will consume us. I think what God wants us to do, too, is to acknowledge that they are happening first and then, second, vow to DO SOMETHING about it in order to help our fellow brothers and sisters out (even if they are on the other side of the globe). The God that I believe in also leads me to believe that we are all more connected than many people know (or choose to acknowledge) and that our actions can indeed make a difference in the lives of those being treated as lesser in a different country, in a different continent, even in a different generation … because actions can be passed down and lead to future improvement, treatment, and/or jurisdiction. As we have learned about so many times in class, HUMANS…PEOPLE let you down – it is a fact of life. Men and women, though given the superior gifts of intellect, soul, and free will, can do terrible things, and can be driven by the most evil of motivators, including money, greed, and selfishness. These can lead to some of the most horrific, inhumane, disgusting, and evil situations and realities in our world today. It is this fact that people let you down that further draws me towards a strong belief in God – because God does not let you down – He is always there and He will not abandon you. Yes, we cannot and do not understand. Bad things happen to good people, natural disasters take thousands of lives, and it oftentimes seems that our (material) world is slowly but surely going to hell. But the faith that I have drives me not to merely accept this horror, but to FIGHT against it. The faith that I have makes me want to work to make the tide of popular opinion change, the materials and money go towards worthwhile causes, and the actions of people to be seen in the eyes of God as good, actions that a just and loving God would condone because they inherently help His children, His people. Reminding believers that what they do has consequences is expected – like I said previously, there has to be a meaning and a reason we are here and thus there has to be an appreciation for what it means to make good decisions and to live a good life. None of us can judge, though, and the meaning of living a good life goes far beyond what products you buy or what kind of chocolate you eat. It includes everything and it also includes the possibility that men and women can start over because I believe in a God who is always standing, open-armed, for His children who have gone astray to return to Him. He has to know how difficult this life is, and how much more difficult this life can be for some as opposed to others. Questioning our decisions, though, on the basis of a Higher Good approving of them, however, could never be a bad thing. I hope at least some of my points have come across in this post! After all, WWJD?
I am a strong believer of God. Therefore I believe that everyone is put on this earth for a reason. As devastating as the lives of these slaves are, I think that God has a greater reward for them once they leave this place. Also, God does not put us through things that we are not able to control. Think about it why those people and not us? He has a plan and knows what he is doing. As it is said, God's time is the best time. We, humans, may think their lives are terrible and unfair but in his eyes it may be golden. Who truly knows whats right and hats wrong. They might be suffering physically but they have a inner peace none of us in the free world can ever achieve.
Your last statement really stuck out to me. You believe that people in extreme suffering have a special inner peace that we can’t understand or do not have? Wow, that’s quiet bold. And I highly doubt people living in genocide or slavery would agree with that statement. In fact, that is probably the farthest thing from the truth. I mean it would be nice to believe that, right. Because those people suffer more than we can even understand, and to believe they have an inner peace would be nice. Although I’ve never spent time in a refugee camp or with slaves, from what I’ve read and watch on documentaries I doubt that is the reality of the situation.
I have a hard time reading this comment. God does not put us through things we can not control? Why them and not us? Do you think they deserve it? Or you just think you or I could not handle it? These people being beaten, being forced to work under harsh conditions, forced into prostitution, all 27 million people suffering in slavery do not have an inner peace I desire. It is not just physical abuse they suffer, I would say it is mostly an inner hurt they feel. A hurt of being owned and controlled by someone. Of being afraid at all times and wanting to be back with their families and at their homes. If you think it is in God’s plan to have all these people suffer, did you feel nothing when you ate the chocolate or saw the video because it was just God’s plan for the boy to be beaten and other people to be beaten and left for dead? I do not understand how someone could not feel in their heart what is being done is wrong.
Yes god my have a plan for everyone, but where does it end. This is horrible for people like them, and under no circumstances should they be forced to be in these slave camps or being held against there will. I don't care what god as planned for them in the after life, these lives taht we treasure so much should be saved and they should not have to be in this situation. Personally as a strong believer of GOD as well, I don't see a reason for any of this, and your comment sucked. The plan that god has for them clearly is not a good one, life is cherished not a plan.
First of all, why does it matter if they have a better life in the afterlife? They are suffering now. They are being tortured and killed every day. Yeah, maybe they will have a better after life, but maybe not. Who knows? They might have just a shitty after life. If I was being tortured right now, I would not be praying to God for a better after life, I would be praying to him for a better current life. And how can you say they have an inner peace? First of all, you or I don’t know that they do so that statement is a little bold. And how can you even think they have an inner peace?! They are being destroyed physically and mentally. They will be scared forever with the memory of what happened to them, if their situation even gets better. That does not sound like inner peace to me.
i agree with what you are saying. i am a catholic and i think the God has a different plan for each individual on the planet today. sure some people live in poverty and slavery but i believe God has a plan for them in the afterlife. Whether you are up or down you have to believe God is with you at all times and that you always have to have faith in him and believe that everything he does for you he does for a reason. And it is not just God it is whoever you believe in. you have to have faith in them and trust them always.
I will not lie in saying that I have questioned God on several occasions, but I still believe he is a wonderful God that will provide. He has helped me get this far in life after family life was crumbling around me in high school. Let me put it this way, without God I probably would not be in college right now.
I think it is natural we question our faith because I feel believing is the hardest thing in religion, but then most people learn to walk essentially blindly. For others, not so much, but whatever works for them.
I know God has a purpose for people especially if they ask him to show them the way. I did about four years ago and I am less than a month away from earning my degree in journalism. Do I believe God shapes all aspect of our lives? No, why? He will help us when we call, but we have to get ourselves going on our own. He cannot always hold our hand for everything. He gave us laws to follow and the mindset to do good so it is our job to fulfill that. If we struggle along the way, then we can call on him for help because he will do so.
Since I'm constantly in a place of questioning and confusion about what I believe religiously and spiritually, it is tough to be offended or surprised by what Sam said. All his comments did was get me to think more and more about what I do believe in. However, I do not believe that a loving God would let suffering go unpunished, and not reward those who were suffering. I'm not quite sure yet if this contradicts the current situation, or if I believe the reward and punishment would occur in the afterlife. As Sam said, it is hard to imagine being in the same place in the afterlife as a slave who worked tirelessly for no money and had no freedom.
I understand the point that Sam was trying to make, but I just can't agree with it completely. I am a Christian, and I don't feel like God is going to say I was sinning every time ate a piece of chocolate just because it was made from something I had no control over. Sam was putting the whole "pearly gates" to the extreme. Do you feel like God thinks that every single person can fix every little problem on this earth? No, because some issues call for a large movement of people joined together to change. Lets go back to the United States slavery days. What did it take to stop slavery? A whole war between the North and the South, and only at defeat did the slave owners have to give in. You have to put yourself in the mindset of these slave owners. They are making millions of dollars off these slaves, and will definitely be stubborn about giving them up unless they are forced into a situation where they must "admit defeat." Now how can we do this? I really don't know, but I know it must be something bigger than just individuals. To be honest, I feel that Penn State alone won't even make that big of a difference. I know it has to start somewhere, but you have to be realistic. If during the Civil War, it took a few STATES to fight against each other to stop slavery forever, then what do you expect must happen to make these COUNTRIES stop their slavery. I'm not suggesting that war must commence, but it's definitely going to require a massive movement. Who knows what God has planned for these slave owners and the slaves. Can you be comfortable enough to just know that they're all going to die eventually and that the slave owners will go to hell and the innocent slaves to heaven? Or do you want some sort of suffering behind this? (in which case would be wrong because revenge is not of God) The whole point in the end is that you can't make eating a piece of chocolate a sin. Yes, I feel awful about what's happening to these slaves to the point where I was almost at tears, but I feel that this slavery issue is beyond just me. God understands the heart. I don't feel like he put me on this earth to stop slavery, but there are people out there whose purpose is for that. Just as people are called to teach, be doctors, lawyers, whatever you can think of, there are people out there who God put on earth to stop the slavery movement. Awareness is the key. We're doing it at Penn State, but how do we reach countries on these issues? God works in mysterious ways. As long as we don't give up on him, he won't give up on us. Those slaves definitely didn't give up on God, and he proved to set them free from their bondage. You just never know.
So yea I was kind of upset about how Sam approached letting us know of how our Gods would act towards us when we die. First of all I really don't think we will be judged like that I know he is not trying to force anything on us he is just trying to play devils advocate to get our gears turning, but really I think this goes back to the steps we have been learning about in class. The thing is, is that many people are blind to this other world. Many people do realize this is whats happening to other people so what we can live in this over abundant society.However, everyone who was in class yesterday now got slapped with a tiny bit of reality. These people are over there harvesting chocolate, and they don't even know what it is! To be honest there is not much we can do, except by from producers such as Fair Trade. But this little lecture could also spark people to go further, and really get involved to help these people. That is why Sam made an oath with that woman, and I really respect him for that. I think that our society can be very ignorant to our world because certain things do not apply to them. However just a little bit of knowledge could go along way. Getting back to religion…..I wish we would have had this lecture before Lent started, it might have made giving up chocolate a little easier…no no but on a serious note this lecture did make me feel a certain way. I want to do something about it, but its just a matter of where to start, because everything in our daily lives might have a part of slavery in it. I think if many people gave it a though and acknowledged where things came from and respected them more God would see that in someone when they pass away. We were all placed on this earth for different reasons and I don't think you can judge a slave vr us at the pearly gates like Sam had stated. I could be very wrong, but I just don't think that in the end that's how it will be. Like tahirjw stated above, awareness is key. That is totally the truth. opening ourselves up to the truth without denying the world we live in is half the battle. It definitely changed they way I think about my consumption. I just hope to continue learning about what is going on in the world. I don't want to be ignorant anymore. I really want to know what is out there, because many people in our society become so caught up in their own problems they don't realize how good that have it.
If your god, or gods, are not judgmental then what are they? I am not trying to say you are wrong or right but I am curious as to what kind of god you imagine other than one who critiques our life and our decisions. My belief in God is one that is judgmental because it, meaning God, has given us the gift of free will. It has placed a portion of our destiny in our own hands so if we choose to throw that destiny away and not make the best of ourselves how can it or they not judge us?
Alright I admit this is a tough topic to touch on. I think it does matter what we do every single minute, it does have an effect either big or small or something or someone right next to you or halfway across the world. With sam’s exact relation to the topic, the 700 of us can make some change (small or big) to making slavery extinct in the future now that we are aware about it. I was born Hindu and celebrate every seasonal holiday and enjoy practicing the traditions that come with it. Growing up, I was taught about every religion, never once did my family forbid me from celebrating my friends holidays and even joint in occasionally. In fourth grade I was vacationing at a beach with my family and made a deal with whoever is up there to pass me in math with the promise to believe in god forever. And that’s exactly what happened, while I do believe in something, how I came to the place of accepting myths, wars and due to religion has changed a lot over the years. I always thought of myself as spiritual, who did not believe in a figure of what ‘god’ looked like, but I saw it in everything around me. Books, the earth below us, animals, you name it, I respect it. It does not have a face, voice or form; I see it in my dreams. My family never forced me to pray or read scriptures; I did it on my own. Somehow I sense now that they knew never to force their ideas on me and now we all are spiritual in the same exact way. However I do think while organized religion may serve the purpose of a moralistic guidebook to an honorable lifestyle, it divides people more than bring them together. People get mad and offended when they are told that something is better than them right? Maybe be right about something as dynamic as the ‘truth’? Well it is only human to do so but we do have the ability to shed away these practices that divide us and label us good or bad. The older I get, I find a better way to approach the true meaning behind these holy books, be it the Quran, Torah, Upanishads or the Bible. I do believe in reincarnation, spirits, other universes and other cool things science can never put its foot down on. I also get that science is largely made up of theory and not proof. We can all be ‘realistic’ and ‘practical’, but what’s the point in that? Whatever is out there is undesirable but we all tend to talk about it like we gave birth to it, then again maybe we did. I simply do not get offended with what this professor says in this class and I do not have the right words to explain why.
Being a Christian, I was kind of offended when Sam was talking about this. I didn’t like the way he seemed to be mocking Christianity, like when he was saying about the “pearly gates” and almost making fun of it. Is he implying that I’m going to hell because I’m not doing anything about slave labor? I’m sure that the God that I believe in understand that there is physically nothing I can do about the slavery and Sam contradicted himself because he said that the most important thing is feeling some kind of way about it, which I do.
I completely agree with what you did say. Being Christian also, I was also offended by his remarks. I think he can have his opinions, but I don’t think he should criticize my beliefs and make a mockery of them. It just isn’t really appropriate because I didn’t sign up for a religious studies class. I understand that religion is tied with race, but there are other things tied with race also. I hope that in the future classes; we don’t discuss religion as much. It’s just a personal issue and choice. Nobodies opinions should be scrutinized or beliefs should be placed on anyone else.
How was he criticizing both of your beliefs? If you ‘feel some way about something’, and I’m assuming you think it’s not right, then do something about it. That was the point he was trying to get across. If you believe that God created everyone (or had something to do with creating everyone), then you should feel compelled to help your fellow humans. It’s certainly much easier to sit back and be complacent, which it sounds like both of you are going to do, but chances are, your god would like you to do something about it. In fact, your god is going to think it’s fucked up that you sat back, and if you purchase slave made items, fully supported, slave labor.
I think that if you fully understand your religion, and how your God deals with sin then you would not even questioned what Sam said. I am a Christian and I believe that God forgives all of your sins if you ask forgiveness, and if you are truly sorry. After all, Jesus did die on the cross to save us from our sins. I know we all probably know that slavery existed around the world, but if we did not know what was going on and how we were directly affected the way these people live we would not be perpetuating it. Of course now it is too late, because the chocolate business is so enormous that it would take millions and millions of people to stop slavery. I think that Sam should not have spoken on such a topic if he did not know exactly what he was speaking of. I feel like he was trying to call anyone who believes in God a hypocrite in a way because he is saying do we think we’re going to go to heaven as if the slaves had never committed a sin in their life. NO matter how hard your life is no matter what sin you committed, God will forgive you for it if you are truly in the bottom of your heart sorry. One of those slaves could have stolen something or did something much worst; does that mean that he should go to heaven over me because I helped his slave owner prosper? I am not saying that what we are doing is right, but Sam has not right to judge anyone or their actions. I believe that slavery is wrong because no one has the right to exploit another human being. However, I also believe that when judgment day comes we will be judge based on our sins individually so I am pretty sure that these slaves are not exempt from judgment. Even if they were slaves and had a horrible life that does not make them any better of a person than I am. I do know that in the Beatitudes we should help those that are less fortunate than we are, and I am totally fine with doing that. I feel that that’s what people are here to do; however, I think the only one who should able to judge us is God. I think that no human has the right to tell me what God is going to me come judgment day if I do not do something that pleases them. I believe that people in glass houses should not throw stones, and yeah Sam is telling us all of these things but how much of this stuff does he actually live by?
The thing about God and religion is that its all different. Everyone is right in their own way. Everyone thinks they're correct and that everyone else is wrong. It's just another thing in the world to argue about and have your own opinion about. I believe in God, but its my God. And I respect everyone else's opinions and beliefs about religion and God. And maybe there isn't a God, our brains aren't capable of knowing this for sure. So who is right? Who's God is judging? Who knows the absolute truth? Who gives a shit? Honestly, be a good person to the best that you can and see what happens after life. You could know everything about any religion and call yourself for example a Christian, and be a terrible person. I just can't think about this anymore.
I am glad this question has come up, and the way Sam brought it up in class. To be honest I try to follow my religion of Islam, but I know I can follow it better than I can, and there are many reasons for it but none are excusable. The point I am trying to make is that people try to be all religious and tell other people to do things, but in reality half the time they don’t do it, which makes them hypocrites, and being a hypocrite is being worse than the person not following the religion. I myself try to keep my hypocrisy at a low, but yet at times I fail and tell people to do things that I am inconsistent in doing. What Sam said in class is absolutely true, when I die and go in my grave, and god asks me about my actions on earth I really won’t know how to respond. And Sam was right when I die I won’t be compared to someone here in the United States or another top world country. I am going to be in the same standard, the same level as everyone in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity, and wealth. And to me when people have more money you have they have more of a responsibility in helping the underprivileged people. I understand that you worked hard for your money, but when you die all that money you saved up isn’t going to buy you a place in heaven your actions on this earth will. And I always try to stick by this belief and eating the chocolates that I do without knowing where they are from is my fault, if I can make sure what I eat doesn’t have pork in it, then I should make sure what I eat isn’t from some slave who is being forced to make it. After seeing the video and hearing the guy say that we are eating his flesh really hit the heart, because I realized that I am more privileged and I take advantage of it, and when I die I will have to answer for my actions and I am scared of that day, and as of right now am not ready at all to answer for my actions at all. Sam always says he doesn’t want us to change at times, but just wants us to get to think, and by him bringing that up the rest of the class that’s all I was thinking about, if I buy a house worth about $250,000 that’s equivalent to the 125,000 people that live on $2 a day. All this right here is my personal belief, to me my life on this earth is a test, and right now as Sam made me realized I am failing big time.
I agree with you said about how Sam brought the whole "God" topic up in class. I thought that the reaction of Sam bringing up the topic of God would spark reactions a lot more intense than when he brought up menstruation, because religion is considered to be the most sensitive topic of modern times, but I was surprised that there were no "ooh"s and "aah"s, and people remained in their seats and did not leave etc. I think that people have an idea that when it comes to religion, people have very different opinions and that it is best to not take offense in that. I agree with what Sam about God comparing to us to just another, random person when we have to answer to him. And that random person could well be one of the cocoa slaves that we saw in the video, and yes, I definitely wouldn't want that. I know that sometimes Sam might sound a little crazy, but I agree with a lot of the things that he has to say about almost everything. I believe that it is time for us to step up together and bring injustices such as the cocoa slaves to an absolute minimum.
Another classic God vs. Religion problem. Sam makes a very valid point in calling religion and religious beliefs/believers hypocritical. This is not to say that God/Supreme Being is a bad person, but it's easy to fall victim to hypocrisy in a religious setting. After hearing thursday's lecture, I remembered my church experience over Easter Sunday. It's odd to me how everyone acts so righteous and worthy and humble, yet they are partaking in the violation of other people on a daily basis. Every day they vote to enslave human beings with their dollar. The pastor's expensive suit, grown from wool probably harvested by slaves somewhere. The church building materials, possibly collected/mined/whatever from some mine or forest by slaves. Yet everyone wants to say how much they help people, and how they are doing God's work. I very much doubt God wants them to be ensuring that the cyclical nature of slavery be continued, so they can drive around and buy things and pretend like they are being good little christians/catholics/muslims/whatever. That's where the hypocrisy comes into play, because while they try to follow some religion and its ideals, they end up breaking them anyways due to the culture we live in. We have voted as Americans (and all 1st world countries) that we will reward business. Not good business, but simply business. With no checks and balances on it, we have blossomed into this consumeristic material driven world. It's not even correct to call it capitalism, it's consumerism, and there is a difference. That difference keeps us buying from wal-mart and target and whatever cheap retail stores there are because we like our things. It's too bad that almost all those "things" have had slave hands touch them somewhere. So it's hard to not think religious people are being hypocritical, because most holy books teach on helping those less fortunate, as Mr. Beatitudes mentioned earlier, but when you are part of the system thats destroying others, your holier-than-thou mentality is really silly. It's as if you are cutting someone with a knife with one hand, and handing them a bandaid with the other. It just doesnt make sense. So for all the charitable church donations/organized relief efforts/missions trips/etc, you are really trying to smooth over the real issue, which is that your actions and your money and your dollars are the reason why these people are in such dire circumstances. True, the people of some tribe in Africa may benefit from your church fund, but the people in South America are being butt fucked by you every morning when you flip on your instant coffee machine and make a good ol' cup of joe. Im quite sure your God doesn't want you to be doing that, because in reality, no one is actually following their holy texts at all. Call it a problem for being an American
I think that this is a very interesting question, because when Sam started talking about Gods etc, I pretty much thought about the same thing, that how would the people who consider themselves to be religious take it? Wouldn't they be mad or feel angered by the way that Sam openly talked about what the Gods might do when we have to answer for our sins? But, surprisingly, people just let Sam go on, there were no "oohh"s or "aaah"s, or people leaving, like they did when Sam started talking about periods, which I found really funny yet interesting. I thought that Sam talking about Gods would bring about a stronger reaction than when he talked about periods, but well, I guess I was wrong about that. I think that this was so because religion is a topic that is prone to a lot more sensitivity than pretty much everything else, and that people have very different opinions about it etc. A major reason for why religion is talked about so much is because everyone does not agree on one particular thing and pretty much everyone has different opinions on a lot of aspects of religion and Gods etc. I know that some people really don't like how Sam is so open about everything, but personally, I think that the way he presents himself, the way he talks etc, sure it's unorthodox, but I think that it's very inspirational, and I agree with a lot of the stuff that he has to say about almost everything. I believe that we, people who are a lot more fortunate than the people shown in the video, have a lot more responsibility to make sure, or at least try to make sure, that the injustices that those people face and suffer from are kept to an absolute minimum. And I also agree with what he said about what God would say when we have to answer him, and how he is not going to let us get away easily with our sins, and how he might actually compare us not to a person who is in a similar position but just a normal, random person, and how that random person may be one of the cocoa slaves etc. I think that we should all think about and pay close attention to all that Sam says, because even though he may sound a little crazy at times, I think that pretty much everything he says makes a lot of sense if you look at it the way I look at it, and that people should learn from Sam has to say about everything.
As a Christian, I too was a bit offended by how far Sam went with his argument. I really did like how he made me and other believers question this aspect of our religion and look outside of our lives and at the injustices shown in the video. I don't think the resemblance of Jesus to Saddam Hussein had any value whatsoever in the beginning of the semester, and I'm a little confused as to why it was brought up again in this forum. Yes, Jesus most likely is not the picturesque white man that our culture makes him out to be. And yes, he may resemble Saddam Hussein, but he may also resemble other men from that area of the world. I personally see faith as something that is inherently mine and I do not pretend that there aren't injustices going in the world. My God is awesome and merciful, but he also punishes people everyday. We do not live in a utopia and we cannot think that we ever will. There will always be people putting others down and being put down themselves but that is where faith comes in. Some people see God at their worst moments, and without faith in a God, what would people like the cocoa workers put their trust and faith in? Faith is hoping for something better and believing that we don't just die after our physical bodies are no more. While I greatly appreciate seeing the hard things in life, it doesn't usually make my belief falter, it makes it grow stronger through that reflection that Sam is wanting us to have.
Though I was raised a Christian, I am FAR from familiar with the religion. My family stopped going to church when I was four and my brother threw up in the middle of Christmas Eve service. Regardless, I don't think you need to follow a religion to believe in a higher power at all. I do think there are higher powers that shape our trajectories in life, but I don't know what. I like to believe in reincarnation and karma, that innocent, good people who are suffering in the world today will be compensated in their next life. And while there's no way to provide that any religious or spiritual belief is true, the fact is that our belief makes us happy. Some of us believe in God and that belief makes us feel safe and secure. I believe in reincarnation because it's pretty cool, and karma because it seems fair.
Okay, people, let's try and take some deep, slow breaths here. Take a second to un-bunch those panties. Good? Okay, let's do this.
First, I really don't want to sound scolding or rude, but some of you have asserted in your comments how offended you were that Sam brought up accountability and God in the lecture. It's kind of beyond me how people could be more offended that Sam challenged their spiritual thought processes than they are that such a great percentage of our goods in the U.S. are made with slave labor that supporting it (financially, at least) is extremely hard to avoid (you're pissed off about the Jesus-Saddam thing?)
(Seriously?)
Some of you have offered up reasons as to why you really shouldn't feel responsible for changing anything. For example, several people referenced this idea of powerlessness–this idea that God 'gets' that you're just one person and can't be held responsible for where the stuff you buy comes from. Assuming at least some of you are Christian: Do you people read the bible? Do you know what God asks of people? He had a senior citizen construct a giant boat and collect a bunch of wild animals. He told a guy to sacrifice his own son as a test of faith. He turned some lady into a pillar of salt because she literally couldn't keep her eyes on the prize. But buying slave made goods ad nauseum is fine because, hey, you're just one person! And God gets that.
Here's a thought: take the chocolate video back to your church. Share it with your congregation. Organize a sale of fair-trade chocolate to educate the community whilst raising funds that you can then donate to Bales's organization, Free the Slaves. Organize letter-writings to your congresspeople, as well as to some of the companies that benefit from slave labor and tell them that you've had enough. God's probably going to understand that you maybe tried to end slavery but failed more than He's going to understand that you decided it was a foregone conclusion and couldn't be bothered to put in the effort.
Of course, then there's also the "God's plan" argument. It's in God's plan for these people to be slaves and, although it's sad, God will recognize their suffering and they will be rewarded in heaven. It's all okay in the end because suffering makes these people inherently better than us, so that evens it all out. First, how far does "the plan" extend? If I find a way to help these slaves, am I going against His plan? What if I choose to do nothing? How do you know God's plan for you isn't to have you devote just some small portion of your time and energy to fighting for global equity? (And if it is, and you just chill in your room and do nothing, will He come find you to let you know you're slacking?)
God may have a plan, but if you're all about the Bible, you should probably have noticed by this point that God also wants us to help our neighbors. Just take the story of the Good Samaritan. After Jesus shares the story, he says, "go now and do the same," meaning that we should go into the world and act as the Good Samaritan did–that is, we should have mercy and compassion for those around us. So come on, have some mercy and compassion. Don't deflect these people by pardoning their suffering as some sort of "free pass into heaven" card.
You can disagree with me if you want. You can tell me I'm disrespectful or whatever–that's fine, I'm sorry you feel that way. But just do me one favor, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
and ask yourself if you really believe that it's fine to ignore the slavery issue, or if you just want to believe it is because you know that trying to fix it would require a lifestyle change.
Alright. This is the thing that completely pisses me off. Why can’t people who believe in a Christian god have a brain? Because that’s what I’m hearing when people assume I don’t think about or question my religion. We’re not all mindless drones that believe whatever we hear. That is not what my religion is about. Why don’t other people understand that? Christian religions, and really any religion, aren’t about going through the motions. They’re about personal faith and growth. While I realize many people who say they believe in a religion do in fact go through the motions, but they shouldn’t be considered the norm or a model for other believers.
I’ve been raised Catholic. It was my parents’ choice to do so. They picked what they would teach me and what I would believe as I got older. However, I went through a phase when I questioned my faith. If God loves us so, why is there pain? Why is there suffering? Why did He give us free will and the ability to possibly go to Hell if ultimately, He really just wants us to be in Heaven with Him? These are questions that I still don’t have answers to, and in reality, I probably never will. I not only questioned my religion at one point; I hated it. I thought it was stupid and that the Church was a lie. I was tired of being made fun of in middle and high school for believing in Jesus and thinking God was real. Then it hit me. I don’t know what it was, but I decided that believing in Christ would be my choice because I had a personal relationship with Him. You may laugh and say, “How can you have a ‘personal relationship’ with someone you can’t even talk to and you don’t even know if real or not?” Touché. It’s a good point, however, isn’t that the definition of faith?
If you’re not going to believe in a god, just do us all a favor and don’t look down on those who do. It doesn’t make us foolish or unintelligent. If anything, by doing so you are making yourself look ignorant. The way I look at it is this: if I go through life trying to be a good person because I believe there is a god and I’m trying to live by his or her rules and then die only to find there isn’t a god, well, what harm is there in that? Who have I hurt along the way? If anything you may think I may not have lived my life to the fullest, but I would have to disagree. Just remember that points like the one Sam made may not always be news to a person of faith.
In truth, what I have found in my life is that people get complacent. We get comfortable and stop asking those big questions. The important ones like the one I was raising in class. Well, I think it's important. So perhaps you've thought about them a great deal but it's ALWAYS good to rethink and see if you get somewhere new with your answer.
I want to say that we do not look down upon those who do believe, but I feel it is my burden to open your mind to reality. The points Sam made should open your mind regardless of whether or not you have faith.
I think you and many other people on this message board are adherents to FAITH not Christianity. You must first find faith and then apply the Bible and all of its practices BECAUSE YOU HAVE FAITH. You utilize this faith in order to practie your religion- and this occurs in all religions, not just Christianity. This faith is what holds religion together. You have to believe.
Being from a Christian family, the church I was raised around is actually named Faith Presbyterian. I can not agree with you more that your religion is about having a personal relationship with God. This relationship has given you faith. This faith is what you hold on to when things hit rock bottom. What I’m really getting at is that you do not need religion to have faith in something. I have faith that because I live my life in a just manner now, I will be in a better place (whether that may be rotting away six feet below, or if its Heaven as described in the bible) when I die. I do not attempt to explain what happens when we die, and I’m comfortable accepting the fact that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
I believe in karma. I feel that what people do on a daily basis will come around. I realized the other day that karma is not based in any one religion, but has fundamental support from the smartest man to ever study science. Newton’s third law of physics clearly states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction–in both magnitude and direction. I had never thought about applying this type of knowledge to abstract ideas like religion. However, this is so true in every aspect that is has become a Law. I never ever thought about extending laws of physics to religion and karma, but it just makes so much sense on EVERY LEVEL; take any situation and it will apply. Think about it. When you push a person, that person is exerting a force equally as hard back at you-you just cant see it because they are the one who flies away when you pushed them. So when you do a harmful deed to another person, that action is accompanied by an action EQUAL in magnitude (how severe ) and OPPOSITE in direction-meaning its coming to you now, not originating from you.
Faith is an incredible thing, and I can not disagree with you about the role that faith plays in most our lives. However, we need to take a look why we need this faith. We have an inherent part about us that makes us question why we are here; some people just cannot stomach the fact that we are part of a NATURALLY occurring, beautiful Earth. I am not a religious person at all, in fact I think what Sam said in class was absolutely on point- but I HAVE FAITH. I have faith because like you, I have developed a personal connection with God. However, I do not adhere to the outrageous hypocrisies of organized religion. I am infuriated when people put their religion on a pedestal and look down upon other religions.
Sam, as we have seen, tends to say things that are bold to say the least. Although I am usually not one to be bothered by people expressing their feelings/opinions, in this particular situation I surprisingly am. It seems apparent that Sam does not believe in what most of us would call God (although his rather annoying story about getting high and seeing “God” may suggest otherwise, it of course is merely a shot at entertainment.) The fact that Sam feels this way is fine; many people indeed do not believe in any type of religion. What bothers me is his attempt to preach this ideology to the 800 students he has control over for an hour and fifteen minutes. This brings me back to what I deem one of the biggest weaknesses of the course: so much of the material we are taught is not factual in nature and rather is almost always opinion based (and for that matter, his opinion). This wouldn’t be as big of an issue if people weren’t actually trying to use the information that was being taught to them. For example, the random statistics that are frequently posted on his slides rarely show any source or detail regarding how they were obtained, which makes me question their validity. When you are presenting such bold facts and surprising ones for that matter, you need to provide some sort of reference to where they originated. I digress….
Back to religion. I guess my question is, what does Sam hope to gain or for us to gain by calling out the validity and existence of our respective gods? Is there actually a gain, or is this just a ploy to get us to think like him? I think the irony is that he once specified that he was not trying to get us to think like him, but his speeches are so often targeted at getting us to accept his viewpoint. Religion is perhaps the most intricate topic of discussion there is, largely because it is a topic people feel very strongly for or against. If Sam doesn’t believe in God, that’s fine, but it is wrong of him to preach it to us. This isn’t an LGBT talk where the answer is clean cut (ie LGBT harassment is wrong); this is an on going philosophical debate that may never have an answer that humans can actually grasp or understand. In this sense, Sam is being borderline offense. He is questioning peoples’ beliefs about a topic that has no answer or know resolution. What makes him so sure? No one is sure. There in lies the concept of faith. If you want to be an atheist that is fine and that is your right, but don’t force your ideas upon students in a race relations class. And for the record, I’m not even that religious.
I don't believe Sam called out my God at all, in fact I think he called out his own perception of God. Why should I be angry or mad at Sam for having his own opinion and belief system which is different than mine? Do I know what God is truly up to? Absolutely not it's to complex IN MY OPINION. I knew what he was trying to do with his speech about religions and what have you, but he was also pushing his own thoughts. I think Sam doesn't realize he isn't just having a discussion sometimes, but rather, he is spewing out what he thinks. Sam doesn't tell me what to think as does anyone else. Sure people have an influence on what I think, but they don't tell me what to think. Is Sam or anyone else wrong in their thinking compared to mine? no way jose, but am I also wrong? maybe? I can not be certain on what "God" is and what is the "right" religion. To me God is a big tree full of all religions that make up a certain essence. Now in my opinion a religion like Scientology is fantastical in theory, because even the dude said he invented it and it's not a work of "God". Maybe he's right though? I have no idea on what exactly everyone's opinion about this topic is. I see a lot of people getting upset over the Jesus looks like Sadaam Hussein thing. Maybe Jesus did look like that. The history channel recently had a special about Jesus and they did a 3d mapping of the Shroud of Turin. The mapping indicates Jesus looked completely different than the one Sam showed, and this is way more recent. and even confirmed by the scientists who worked on the Shroud from the beginning and said it wasn't of Jesus. After further review they believe it was. Everyone makes a big deal about what color Jesus was. Really who cares. What color is God? Nobody can prove that . Also who knows what God's plan is I hear that coming up as well. Maybe he has a plan and maybe he doesn't. Maybe the people who believe are just assholes. Sam said that people are born into socioeconomic luck for the most part. People look at the chocolate makers and can tell that's slavery. A lot of people are slaves and don't even know it. Some people look like they have it all but really are the most tortured. Could be that going through all they've went through makes them feel clean int he end, as they know they have no guilt, and are allowed to be angry. God gave man free will in my opinion. What man does with that free will, especially in this case certain regions, is very seeing. Man can abuse his free will or help others with his free will.
I think that the comment Sam made was really interesting. The idea was something that I never really thought of before about how many of us believe in God, and yet we come from all different situations and circumstances, but yet we're all "judged" the same. I do believe in God, but sometimes I wonder if there is a God because if so, then why do such catastrophic, awful events occur. I really was not offended by this remark because it is true. If we are "all going to be judged by God," how is it ok that these people were slaves and I benefited from it. Anyway, I just thought it was a really interesting and eye opening point about how one lives their life.
Firstly, I don’t like when Sam talks about religion or gods at all. He has said that he doesn’t like to offend anyone or push his views onto anyone, but I think he is hitting a nerve when he talks about being religious and gods not being there for us or how can a god allow this? I’m pretty sure I didn’t sign up for a religious class and I would appreciate if it wasn’t discussed as much as it is. I understand that religion is tied to race, but there are other topics about race we can talk about. Religion is a personal preference and nobody should be ashamed or criticized in what they believe in. I hope in the future, the lectures will not come back to religion.
Actually you did. You signed up for a sociology class. Religion is one of, if not the most influential factors affecting human sociology. Entire civilizations have been built lives around religion. You can't possibly try to study the reasons people do what they do without taking religion into consideration. Taking religion out of the lecture just bc it "rubs people the wrong way" is both irresponsible and detrimental to the learning process.
I agree with you in that we all make our own decisions when it comes to religion and that we shouldn't be addressed in a demeaning manner when it comes to this topic. Although I do not consider myself to be "very religious," I do believe in a God/ a greater good, and I definitely felt as though Sam was in a bit of an attack mode due to his self proclaimed state of ranting. I do believe in heaven, and although I don't quite imagine it to be the way that Sam was referring to on Thursday, I was still thrown off by what he was saying because it definitely felt as though he was mocking what the Biblical version of Heaven. I don't mock Sam because he has Libertarian views, so why should he mock me or anyone else because of what our religious views may be?
I love THON. I have participated in THON for the last two years and it is possibly the most beautiful thing I’ve ever participated in. That said…what is more of a tragedy? People succumbing to cancer, a natural cause of death, which was not created by society or people succumbing to slavery and sweatshop labor, which was created by society? Part of me thinks the latter. If half the people that participated in THON joined that anti-sweatshop club I honestly think they would have much more of an impact.
I hate to sound like a pessimist but I think real answer is that we simply don’t care about those slaves/sweatshop workers. Because of them, we get cheap products, and continue to live are ridiculously luxurious lifestyles. It’s way easier to find some way to justify it by saying bullshit things like “its out of our control” or “its part of God’s plan”
Lets just be honest: it is way easier and way more enjoyable to live our privileged lives in denial/ ignorance than it is to actually do something about it. We can stop these social injustices. All we have to do is want it bad enough, and right now we just don't.
Here’s a quick run through of my spiritual history. I was a raised in a traditional Irish Catholic family, went to Catholic school, and didn’t really question my beliefs until about a year ago. I looked around at all the other religions around the world that we Christians brush off as being not true like Islam, African Tribal religions, etc. I came to realize that the bible can’t be trusted and that in reality there is no evidence for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Some days I wake up and I see so much beauty and complexity in the world and I feel like surely some intelligent being created this. Other days I look at the lack of evidence and the darker side of the world and believe that certainly there can’t be a god. It literally changes day by day. I guess that makes me agnostic?
Anyway, I thought the girl who complained about the Jesus and Saddam Hussein picture comparison is being way too sensitive. It's a joke. If you’re a white person, your church probably hangs up crosses with Jesus portrayed as w white guy. Now there’s something to be offended by.
I also agree with the dude who thinks that IF there’s a god who judges people, then she’s sure as hell not going to buy the “I’m just one person I can’t make a difference” argument.” The religious people should be the first ones in line to help. But they rarely are.
I actually went to that talk that the United Students against Sweatshops and I was blown away by the sweatshop laborers and the stories they told. The saddest part is that after their college speaking tour, they are going back to work in the sweatshops once again. What was even sadder is that only a handful of people went to the talk and far fewer actually care enough to get involved.
How is it that thousands of Penn State students can raise $7 million for childhood cancer every year, but less than 50 participate in the anti-slavery/anti sweatshop club?
I love THON. I have participated in THON for the last two years and it is possibly the most beautiful thing I’ve ever participated in. That said…what is more of a tragedy? People succumbing to cancer, a natural cause of death, which was not created by society or people succumbing to slavery and sweatshop labor, which was created by society? Part of me thinks the latter. If half the people that participated in THON joined that anti-sweatshop club I honestly think they would have much more of an impact.
I hate to sound like a pessimist but I think real answer is that we simply don’t care about those slaves/sweatshop workers. Because of them, we get cheap products, and continue to live are ridiculously luxurious lifestyles. It’s way easier to find some way to justify it by saying bullshit things like “its out of our control” or “its part of God’s plan”
Lets just be honest: it is way easier and way more enjoyable to live our privileged lives in denial/ ignorance than it is to actually do something about it. We can stop these social injustices. All we have to do is want it bad enough, and right now we just don't.
I think that he meant all gods like whatever god you believe in why would he let the world run like this to let people be slaves, what happened to the all men are created equal I don’t think this would happen if were we all created equal like were suppose to be why would god let people be treated that way. I think whatever God you believe in you could question this because you would want to know why any god would allow this to happen and I don’t think it matters what you believe in when it comes to this and I don’t think people would want their gods allowing this.
After this class and seeing the video, I can't help but admit that it does make me question my God. If he created all of us alike and loves all of us, then why would he put certain people through such pain and agony. If he truly does exist and truly does love us then I just can't comprehend why he would make people go through such terrible things. I understand that going through tough times makes you a stronger and more mature person, but what these slaves go through is horrifying. However, I do believe that God does everything for a reason and there is a reason why these people have to go through these things.
I think people are too hard on religious people about stuff like this. To qualify myself here, I am an atheist and have been for a long time. I do not think religion makes rational sense to me, so I stopped following it. However, that is not really what religion is about. It's about faith and believing what you are told by people you trust. If you accept that as valid it doesn't matter how bat shit insane the ideas are, you will still accept them on faith. It really isn't about being stupid or being mindless sheep or whatever some atheists like to say.
First of all, on the issue of calling out God, I don't really think that he was calling out our God's, he was just trying to get us to think about slavery in the context of right and wrong. What he was really trying to get at is that the traditional way that most of us view God may not necessarily line up with what would be practical in theory. I agree, it is good to think about what he said. However, part of believing in an omnipotent being is believing that he may be beyond your comprehension. The physical translation we have of God doesn't really make sense given the ethereal context of it. I don't think that you really have to re-evaluate your life if you start to notice that certain circumstances in the world may not be how you originally perceived. My grandfather has told me, and I agree with him, that he believes that right and wrong are completely dependent upon your circumstances. This would line up well with what Sam says, that you could choose to believe that you will be judged against everyone in the world if you ever get to that kind of afterlife. Ethics and morality are subjective in nature and thus our interpretations may differ entirely from that of a supreme being. Many major religions have a holy text to reference when questioning what a pious life is. The human language, as we can see with our modern law system, allows for a large amount of personal opinion. Islam has scholars who are in constant debate about the exact meaning in relation to modern circumstances. The comment made in class brings up this idea of uncertainty when evaluating our moral positioning. How can we be 100% sure of anything, unless a deity would, using more than just our imperfect languages imbue us with the power to understand with a divine clarity. Luckily some of us have the blessing of worshiping a deity who cares only for our current and tangible lives thus circumventing this question entirely. Those who base their entire lives on promises in a life following this one have to weigh their choices to a different standard. The activities we do in this life, will always disappoint someone, a drastic example would be if we were to free the slaves we would disappoint the slave owners, possibly bankrupting them and resulting them in starving to death. Someone would have to weigh the deaths of some to benefit others. Some religions would state that all lives are equal, and in such a case you would have to make this kind of decision. The message is just do what you can, no one can really know whats going to happen. Just don't be a dick.
I personally don't believe in god in a religious way, and I have even more trouble dealing with religion as a whole. In my opinion, any organized religion in the world today has become a corrupt and perverted version of what it started off as. All of the major religions share the same core values and were started off with the best of intentions. Since its beginnings, organized religion has been the cause of more cold blooded killing than just about anything else. The crusades pitted two major religions against each other in some of the bloodiest battles the region has ever seen. Today, extremists who believe that they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven are strapping bombs to their bodies and trying to kill as many "infidels" as possible. Not only that, but one could hardly look at the news of the last few months and not see stories about the Catholic church's involvement in a massive pedophile ring. The pope himself even admitted to pardoning a priest who's victims were up in the "untold numbers". Not to mention the fact that the Catholic church is one of the largest business organizations in the world, and will sell just about anything with a cross or bible verse on it. It seems that these lexicons of spiritual power are no more than false prophets out to make the most money possible, while at the same time using their extensive network of priests to molest as many children as they want without fear of the law. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to throw my faith into any group that condones that kind of behavior.
That being said, I think that everyone has the freedom to choose what they want to believe for themselves. it just seems to me that all of the available choices are bullshit nowadays. Everyone needs to find out what they truly believe in and follow that belief until their last days.
I have to say Sam, like most other people in the world have brought up that point about Gods, but whose to say Sam or any one of them are right? I'm a Catholic and have been my entire life. I feel like you have to believe in something and I truely believe that their is a God and his son was Jesus. I think Sam just likes to shake things up and get people to think a different way but thats fine. I'm sometimes offended by what he says but it just goes from one ear out to the other. I don't care what he says, I believe in God and I believe in Jesus. The way Sam acts and talks he may think he is god. So it really doesn't bother me because its just enough opinion from someone who like everyone else in the world, doesn't know what is true.
This is part of the reason why I do not believe there is a God. If we are all “God’s children” why is there so much injustice in the world? Why do good things happen to the most horrible people, and terrible things happen to some of the nicest? I have heard excuses like “it’s because God tests the good people more to see if they are worthy for heaven or not” but really…come on! I do not mean to put down anyone’s faith or beliefs, but I just wish there was not so much hypocrisy in what people say about God and the religions they follow.
I’m not a religious person and I don’t judge people who are, but after watching the slavery over chocolate video and hearing one of the slaves say that “only God knows what is happening to us”, it made me think about if I were a religious person. My ignorance may come back to bite me later but I was thinking that if God created everything, our Earth and our people, then how did he (or she) lose control and allow slavery, violence, and other horrible disasters to occur to us? I couldn’t bring myself to believe that everything is happening for a reason. If you believe that then maybe you should tell these slaves that what is happening to them is suppose to happen.
First of all what is religion, it is the one word which is hard to describe and understand. The word itself has so much power that many attempts have been made, however, and while every theory has its limitations, contributing to our understanding of this complex word. Religion marks the human encounter with the god or gods. I myself is not that religious, but religious in some part of the world is the big deal. Like in India, there have been a lot of fights in the name of the religion. The two religion “hindu” and “muslim” always fight because of the religion. Also I have noticed that, one of my friend was leaving at the viaro village, he encountered some people at his home which were coming there to change his religion. They used to come and give lecture on the god “jesus” and my friend tried to ignore but he couldn’t and he got pulled to the church with them. The question I am trying to ask or understand is that why christen religious people try to change everybody’s religion That was the thing I dislike the most, why some people are trying to change someone’s religion. Religion should be of free choice, like myself I am a Buddhist and I respect my religion. So why someone should listen to a person and pick a religion. Another point I wanted to make Is that people are divided in the world on the basis of their religion and that creates a lot of problem. Also the main cause of the war is the religion, if there would be no religion in the world, half of the war in the world would be over.
As same asked what are our god thinking, according to different religion there are different gods. But if you look at the god thinking, they all end up at the same place “path to the heaven are similar in most of the religion.” I have some friends from different religion and their beliefs are the same as the Christian but just different god. So different gods are just the way to understand the teachings of god and way to find a way after death.
So lets talk about the chocolate example, Sam was constantly trying to make us feel guilty, and most of us did, I did myself too. But I think its life. The one thing I didn’t understand or get it, is that why some people are crazy enough to record things like this instead of doing something. I wouldn’t able to record a story like this instead I would help all I could but tats the other point. In the class some students either did not eat their second piece of chocolate at all or felt somewhat guilty while doing so. So the important thing here is that, don’t divide the people on the basis of religion, god, race, or any other discrimination. That is the main problem in the world.
Well personally I do not believe in god, God, or gods. I think that after Sam said that how can there be god with all this shit that goes on in our world such as slavery there can be no rational explanation as to there being a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god as most religions believe their god’s abilities entail. How can a god be benevolent when pain and suffering exist in the world? How can a god be all-powerful when he fails to help people who are injured? Sure people may think that god protects them from getting into an accident but why does he do that and not help the women getting raped or the genocides happing across the world. How about slavery? How can we consider this god to be benevolent, omniscient, and all-powerful when injustices occur all over the world? God simply can not exist within our definition of a god. When Sam mentioned how god can not exist. Those with religious beliefs in the class should feel ashamed that they never thought about how they can accept how god allows injustices to occur and still believe that god is benevolent. My family is catholic and they sat that when something bad happens it is a test of some kind or it will help them become a better person. I do not believe that it works that way. I think the universe is hostile of everything and there really is no reason as to why something may happen. Certain events may help people become better people but not everything will make people better people or help them develop their feelings or something like that. There is no test that god is performing on us. There is no great plan. If there was then people would not be suffering so much because god must be benevolent. If there is a god then he/she/it is not benevolent. This makes most of the modern religions not believable. Those who believe in these religions need to definitely rethink their rationalization for their beliefs or even if their beliefs are practical in a world filled with injustice and suffering. Those that hold these beliefs need to change how they think that their god works and what their god is. I hope that they can see some reason as to why the world is full of pain and suffering and their god does nothing to help. Or at least it seems like nothing is being done to me at least. A large percentage of the world’s population does not have enough food. How can there be any god that allows this to happen? Especially to children when they can practically not do much to fix their situation.
I personally got a little bit upset about Sam’s comments about our God. It’s not that I don’t think that we need to do anything about the situation with slavery, because we do. I really do agree that the first step is awareness. But, maybe I guess it seemed like Sam is implying that all believers of God just live their lives selfishly. Whenever he was talking about all of us being at the “pearly gates” and discussing whether or not we get into heaven, and then we see what the slaves next to us… I really just did not follow what he was saying. Does he think that we would not get into heaven because of where we have lived in our lives? I have always been a firm believer that being a Christian especially means that you are leading a life that God wants you to lead, and you are doing that with the cards you are dealt. Now, I try my very hardest to live my life the best that I can, and I really do think about how there is so much injustice in the world, and I try and fight it in the best way I can. I don’t really have an answer to the question, but I thought it was strange about how Sam pulled religion into everything. I understand how he wanted to make us feel something, which I most certainly did, but whether or not we get into heaven, or whatever you believe, seems to me like it should be between you and God.
However, I also think that God would really like us to keep learning and try to keep helping one another. I think that he would be hurt if we were handed this knowledge and did not do anything about it. To me, doing your research and telling people about it really is the first step, and I am glad Sam touched on that. However, I am not exactly sure about what the second step should be. I am sure that is something we can talk about later on. However, I think that we can all agree that we are all pretty lucky to attend Penn State and get this wonderful education. One thing I have especially learned from this class that is that we should never take anything in our lives for granted. Sam’s right when he said that we can’t feel guilty for being the people that we are, but that does not mean that we should ignore what is going on in the rest of the world. To me, it is our goal to advocate for justice for the slaves, and then hopefully one day we will see some progress.
Even though I thought that Sam was being a little aggressive in his adaptation of what happens at the the pearly gates of Heaven, I have to admit that he really did get me thinking. I've said it before– I'm not super religious, but I do believe in God and having a purpose. However, when Sam said that those slaves would also probably be in Heaven and that we'd have to "go stand next to them," I couldn't help but to think that he has a point. I mean, clearly their situation is horribly unfortunate and I am searching for ways to help, but how can God judge me fairly in comparison to one of the slaves? My life, through my perspective has had it's ups and downs… but the life of one of those slaves is definitely weighted more on the down side than up? And when you consider the fact that some of the ups in your life- like the new laptop or iPhone you got for Christmas or that gold watch you'll buy yourself after your first promotion at work- revolve around material objects that have slave-made parts in them… how is that fair to the slave that got to Heaven? To him, we as consumers of his unpaid work and beaten life should not deserve to stand next to him in Heaven. The wheels are definitely turning in my head… and after reading some of these posts from both rather religious people to the semi-believers, I'm still thinking. But I'm still left wondering- are we just saying these things like "everyone has their purpose on this Earth and He will reward them when they leave" just so we can sleep at night? Just so that we can still tell ourselves that we're still going to go to Heaven?
Sam has the right to call out any god he wants. We live in America its his right to share his religious views with us. If someone is religious and Sam offended you well that something you need to deal with. Furthermore, people always seem to want to know what can I do, how can I change whatever the thing is that Sam is showing us that we interpret as wrong. For instance, people probably thought what can I do to help those slaves who were beaten mercifuly for attempting to escape for their slave masters. I have two ways of looking at this. I have two solutions are ways to resolve/look at these world problems we have all witnessed in SOC 119 and that we want to fix. The first method of going about these problems is we all as individuals need to only look at ourselves. We all need to focus and point the finger at ourselves and say I'm the problem and I am going to change myself. If everyone would do that then the world would be a much better place for everyone to live. But their lies the problemk, everyone will not step up and take responsibility. As humans we all feel like, yeah I know im not perfect but I dont hurt anyone, im just going about living my life. If anything I often go out of my way to help others "IM GOOD". The problem is not me its them over there. Thats what everyone thinks and believes. Its kind of like when Sam displayed the statistics about people taking polls on questions and one of the questions read something like 95 percent of people feel they do enough to save water, while 30 percent felt their neighbors does enough to preserver water. We are just inclined as humans to always point the finger at others and rarely at ourselves this is why the world is as bad and evil as it is, its not because of "those people" over there doing wrong its because of "us" all of us. Equally. My second method of looking at "how can we fix this world" is we cant. This world is evil because it just is. There is alot of injustice and even more people going through so much pain and suffering and it will always be that way. Is it because of the Devil? Is is because God allows it? I dont know. This is just how it is. People are just suffering there born suffering and they die suffering, and for the most part us living here in America dont really acknowledge these people. I kind of feel like seeing how evil and vile and ill this world is some what reassures that there is a Heaven and a Hell. Where are we going to go? I dont know? How are we being judged? I dont know? Is living a "good" life and helping others enough to go to Heaven.. I dont know but I doubt it. I feel like living average lives and helping other people doesnt make us good people it just makes us normal people and being a normal person only enables and promotes the way the world is today. We would all have to try emounsly hard and be extraordinary people caring and loving and doing all good things for others all the time, Can you do that though? Or do we just choose not to? I dont know. You tell me..
Because I believe in my God (by the way I’m Christian) so fervently, it takes a whole lot to offend me when anyone starts talking ill about him. When Sam brought up God and what he would say to all of us, I understood what he was trying to say. I don’t think it was entirely logical more that it was emotional but I understood all the same. I cannot crucify myself for not knowing every problem in the world and if someone needs to call me ignorant I would ask them on which planet they’ve been living on because I’ve been here on Earth. I am not omnipresent, I cannot possibly know everything happening everywhere at all times just as much as Sam cannot know everything that is going on within a structured system as small as a classroom. This means we are actually people. What I do believe God does is hold you responsible for what you do know and what you did with that knowledge. If someone grows up around thieves and doesn’t know it is wrong, do we crucify him/her for something they did not know? No! There is a reason trials are either adult or juvenile because with each it is assumed there are different level of knowledge. I also do not believe that God puts people in places to suffer so you know what you are made of, that is absolute crap and anyone that says that does not know the first thing about the Christian faith. Hey, I can sit in garage but that doesn’t make me car and so sitting in church doesn’t make one a Christian. My bible says we have a responsibility to those with needs that we can meet no matter the capacity or situation, sometimes that person is poor sometimes they are like you and sometimes maybe even more well off than you. Sam’s comments have to do with Sam’s thinking and so I keep that separate from me as a person. His job as he has said time and time again is not to make you believe anything but rather just think. Whether in the process of thinking you change your mind, that is your prerogative, because sometimes your opinions might even be further rooted because you really thought about it. But no, I do not believe God would punish me for something I had no clue about, what kind of God would he be then. But if in fact I knew I could have done something and just didn’t, then I will be held accountable for that knowledge I did possess.
To start out I want to say that I am a Christian and do believe in God and Jesus Christ. I think there are many so called “religious” individuals out there that never question faith, but I am not one. I mean why would God, who created us in his image and calls us to be his children allow slavery and suffering to take place on Earth? I have questioned this many times, and I have come to the conclusion that it is to bring us all closer together. God works in mysterious ways. Why does an earthquake hit one of the poorest countries in the world, and not the United States for instance? I believe this is God’s way of getting us to love one another. Would millions of people be willing to come together to help the poor or the wealthy? God is not here to make life easy, but to challenge us to look after one another and his planet. I find it hard to believe that if we were all wealthy, anyone would give a shit about anyone but himself or herself or our environment.
Belief in god has nothing to do with this question. It is just wrong to think about some higher power when this stuff is going on in the world. There is no god. If you applied to a nice job in Shanghai to do logistics for a mining company, but as soon as you went there, you were put to work inside the mines without pay, who would you start praying to? Would you pray to god? Would you believe that god put you there? Would you believe that god really exists then? I know I wouldn't. I would pray for my family back home to notice that I was missing and do something about it. If they can't, then I would probably be screwed for the rest of my life. It is useless to think about what was going to happen with the stuff you were being made to mine. Say the coal you were mining was used by every government in the world to make steel to use as a part of their infrastructure, I can claim that they were buildings created from my flesh. But in the end, it doesn't matter. If I was in this situation, I would just be wishing that someone would realize that this is going on, stop by and slip a gun in my hands, so the next day, I can sneak around and destroy the people responsible for holding me against my wishes. If you put a gun in every slaves hand, there would not be slavery. All these "slave owners" would be dead, and all the products that you buy will go up in price so much that people would start complaining about the slaves getting guns.They would want these guns taken away from people so they can get to "work" again. They remove the guns from the workers so they can get back to work. This will result in the chains put back on the slaves and they would be exploited to keep the prices down. This is all basic human nature. When you go shopping, you look for the best deal. In buying the item for the best deal, you encourage manufacturers to make more items for that price. In order to do that, they have to enslave people. We as humans enable other humans to enslave us. We either need to give every person weapons or take weapons away from every body to even start a solution of ending slavery. And when it happens, you would be spending 90% of your salary on necessities rather than luxury items. Change should come from the leaders of the world, and Mr. Bales is doing a great job attempting to turn the tide in the favor of the slaves. But some corrupt governments would not want this change as they would have to pay a lot more without slave labor.
During class, I remember how Sam was talking about how God can forgive us for supporting modern day slavery through our material consumption. I understand the point he was trying to make, but I do not necessarily agree with it. What I took from his speech was that people who practice religion may just shrug off the ending of modern day slavery by using the excuse that God will forgive them. In a way this makes people look hypocritical by saying that slavery is wrong and then going out and consuming more slave made products. Bluntly speaking, these people are not practicing what they preach. I have to disagree with Sam though when he was imitating God by sarcastically implying that although a person supports modern day slavery they can still be forgiven. First of all, as a Christian, I know I’m a hypocrite. I do not always practice what I preach or do not behave in a way that Christ would like me too. Sometimes I intentionally decide to do things even though I know they are wrong and other times I do things unintentionally that discredit what Christianity is all about. Although I fall short of God’s standards, which is perfection, and I know I have slipped up, am slipping up, and will slip up, my God is merciful and still forgives me. I do not understand this concept so I’m not sure how to explain it. How can a person mess up so badly where they deserve to die and still are loved and forgiven like they never did anything wrong in the first place? God is absolutely astounding like that. Unfortunately, Christians are our best and worst examples of Christianity. I’m not saying that people who do things against God’s will should just give up and not try to change their actions. As you get to know God more and more, you start to change your philosophies and actually want to make Him happy because you love Him. So Christians should still strive to follow God’s commandments even though in this life time we will not be able to do so perfectly. Going back to Sam’s point, isn’t it true that if a person learned about how most products are made by slaves, whether religious or not, wouldn’t they be a hypocrite too if they continued to purchase these slave made products? This is a very blunt statement, but I think we’re all hypocrites or ignorant to be honest. We hear about modern day slavery, and we either don’t care or don’t see what the problem is (making us ignorant) or we decide to make a change and become hypocrites because we will always fall short of that change no matter how hard we try. I am not saying that we should we should choose to be ignorant in this fight to end slavery. All I’m saying is, we will fall short, but I believe for people who believe Christ Jesus is Lord that they will be pardoned for their hypocrisy. As I said before, I do not completely understand this concept of unlimited forgiveness, but I’m accepting it based on faith. This concept can be easily mocked by others who do not choose to accept it by faith, but if everything were just laid out for us and explainable, there would be no point in religion. So as far as Sam calling out our gods during class, I believe he had good intentions to wake people up who are just relying on their forgiveness in their religion to not make a change. When listening to Sam, he wants you to look past just words and look into the meaning behind them. For his bold and seemingly offensive statement, I’ve now come to appreciate his teaching style more.
I used to be a religious person who went to church every or most Sundays with my family. My mom is catholic, my dad is not religious. My dad does not ever go to church and brought up the question to me: how does God allow a drug dealer on the streets is healthy and rich while babies are dying and children are being beaten. This got me thinking. My mom of course says free will is the reason. But at what point is free will ok and a good excuse. In my home town, about a year ago, a 10th grade boy shot and killed his father, mother and 2 younger brothers, one in 8th grade and one in 6th grade. I did not know this family but I cried one night for hours thinking about how these two boys would never have prom, never experience college or maybe even a girlfriend. After this night, I stopped going to church and I stopped believing. This was the turning point in my religion. I just cannot grasp how God, who is supposed to be the protector and almighty, could let something happen to such innocent people. It just bothers me. Sometimes I catch myself wanting to pray but I feel bad about it because I feel like I am not religious enough to ask for God’s help. Sometimes I want to go back to church and start going again but since I am at college and don’t have many friends who go to church, I find it hard to make myself go. But when Sam says things about people’s Gods, I understand why people would get offended. It is not anyone’s place to make fun of someone else’s religion or religious beliefs. And I get that Sam wants us to think but the fact that he is not religious and telling religious people that their God is wrong in some ways, I can see how that would be offensive. Sometimes I even get offended or bothered by the things that he says. I have to remember that I am not really one to have the right to be offended since I am not a good religious follower. But at the same time, people are free to feel a certain way and express their feelings. I have done it in the past and I am sure I will do it in the future. I can understand why people get bothered by the things that he says. We were all brought up a certain way, and when someone challenges the way we were taught to think and our beliefs, no matter what they are, we are bound to get offended and mad.
I am trying very hard to take in this situation and understand where Sam was coming from when he made this statement, but at the same time, I can’t help but feel angry and disappointed in him and his inability to control himself in a setting that is of educational value and not for him to rant his offensive opinion. This class was obviously made to force us as young adults, to learn, understand, and react to what is being taught to us. However I still believe that what should be given to us are facts, and not purely opinion or rants on subjects as dangerous as religion and people’s “gods”. To be honest I’m not sure why I’m actually angry with Sam for his statements because I am personally not a very religious person, but on the other hand, I do feel that it is territory that should be left out of the classroom if isn’t needed. There are plenty of people at Penn State who are very religious, who could have taken offense to what was said, and as a professor is that really what you want to do? Offend the student’s who’s minds you’re trying to enrich with knowledge? At the same time I do know that Sam has been teaching for many years and he would probably know what works and what doesn’t work in a learning environment so I am still a bit confused as to where I stand. Something else that scares me is that what Sam said actually caused people in the classroom to rethink their religion. It is very sad that a simple comment by a professor can cause a person to change their religious views, but it is also very sad that Same decided to “make us think” about something that is so sacred as our God. On the subject of Slavery, I do see what same is trying to say. I full heartedly agree that the first step towards stopping slavery around the world is clearly awareness of the situation. It did seem as if Sam was trying to imply that because I believe in God, that I’m selfish and don’t really care about the situation. The entire rant about “pearly gates” and seeing slaves in heaven just through me off completely, and to be blunt as soon as he brought up god, I got pissed and kind of tuned out his points. Was he trying to say that because I eat chocolate that was made by slaves I’m a sinner, and that I’m going to hell? I understand that he wanted us to think about the situation, and think about what we could do to help stop the situation, but insulting a person’s belief, or belittling what they follow isn’t exactly going to help the situation at all.
I like that point that one of the previous posters made, because I thought the EXACT same thing when Sam brought it up: "it is hard to imagine being in the same place in the afterlife as a slave who worked tirelessly for no money and had no freedom."
I, personally, am not a Christian or anything, so the existence of heaven is a notion that I have yet to fully be convinced of.
It's a really good point, though. If I'm a good person living in America, with a steady, fulfilling job, a good income, and a sweet little nuclear family to be proud of, how is that at all comparable to the life of a slave on the Ivory Coast? It's extremely difficult for me to imagine that the reward for living our lives will be access to the same damn place. That doesn't even seem remotely fair.
I've been a Catholic since I was born, and I have always thought about what I was doing. However, Sam brings up a valid point about the person across the world who God may be comparing me to. I don't know, I guess I never really thought about that, but for that matter, I have never really considered that even a remote thing. Catholicism's general rule of principle is The Golden Rule of "Do unto others…," but another major aspect of it is the whole "last will be first and first will be last." Now, this is where the debate comes in. I am between Middle Class and Upper Middle Class I would say, and I guess the whole notion of "the last will be first" as definitely come into my head. But we, as humans, cannot possibly understand or comprehend how God is judging us. If it is the case that God is judging us based on our living situation, well then a lot of us well-off Catholics here in the United States are pretty screwed, while the slaves around the world who are Catholic can rejoice because they have a foot in the door of heaven. However, that presumes that God ONLY cares about one thing: basically how much money you are worth…and if we presume God is more of the omnipotent and all-merciful God (which we all [I'm speaking in generalities of course] hope that God really is like) then sure, our situation matters, but so does our character and how we act towards people. I really do believe that God is more of the second kind: God judges you on your actions and decisions in life and how you acted towards your fellow humans.
Now here is the part in the argument where people can jump in and say, "Well you acted terrible to other humans because you bought slave-made goods and things that people possibly died for." Yeah, sure you can say that, but I think if you become aware of the situation and try to do anything you can, whether it is learn more about it and try and buy stuff from fair trade organizations or give money to organizations who help fight slavery or any other things, then that is doing your part. You may not have ended slavery, or really have had a huge impact, but at least you did what you were capable of doing.
God, I want to think, grants us certain talents and abilities that we are to share with those around us. Most of us, if not pretty much all of us, are not going to do anything crazy in life, like cure cancer or win the Nobel peace prize or anything like that. But we CAN all be good people to those around us including family friends and even strangers, do our part to help make the world better by volunteering time or money to philanthropic organizations, and living life the best we can using the gifts that God has given us.
I find the responses to this question to be very interesting but also predictable. Every time religion is brought up it seems some people automatically get offended and then others bring a variety of “I think” and interpretations to back what they believe. I love to read through the posts and see the different trends that always evolve. In my eyes it is just a never ending cycle of speculation that does not really answer the question of how someone thinks about the issue and how it ties into their religion. But in the end does it really need to. Why is it that I can’t just be a Christian and believe that there is a heaven and a God and that’s it? That’s how I feel anyway, why do I need to justify what I believe whatever it maybe, does someone know something I don’t?
You could ask why do people still have pre-marital sex? Why are there homosexuals who believe in religion? Why do people still steal and don’t obey thy mother and father? It is about interpretation and beliefs. Do you believe that the golden gates are there for anyone that believes and are devoted to the idea of God? Do you believe that all your sins are forgiven when you die? Many of the religious teachings are about personal beliefs and growth within the religion. Most do not emphasis the impact of third world country policies on their citizens or the actions of others hidden in bureaucracies.
I think that it is very easy to believe that God is a good God and that he has done everything for a reason when you live the life of someone in America. But looking at the lives of people all over the world living in slavery I can’t imagine why they would every deserve that life. I am not the most religious person, but I do believe in God. I also believe that man can do things that go against God, and that is slavery. I don’t think that God interferes too much with our lives, and that the slave owners are bad people, and the slaves are very unlucky.
I think that people can go along without questioning their God is because of faith. I am Christian and I have believed in God my entire life. I know some people will say how can’t you question that there is a God when all of these horrible things are happening. But I think that those people will have something better waiting for them in the afterlife. I think that everything happens for a reason, and we may not always understand what that reason is but eventually it will make sense. It is called your faith for that reason, it can’t be backed by hardcore facts, but something inside of you just tells you that this is right, and this is what you believe in.
Okay, I'm not sure how to begin my response to this, but I "feel some kind of way" about this notion, as Sam might say, and I am going to try to put my feelings into words. I consider myself a religious person and, though I also consider myself to be open and willing (and wanting!) to speak with people of other religions, backgrounds, and even those who do not know what they believe in and those who do not believe in any God, a big part of me is made up of my incredibly strong sense of belief in a God who watches over us all day and night, who never sleeps, and who ultimately desires the absolute best for each one of us. I simply cannot understand the possibility that there couldn't be a God, and any counter-arguments I have listened to and heard (even from people I deeply respect) have only served to fuel my fire and give me a greater sense of belief in God. I do know, however, that people's beliefs are all different and they tend to be shaped by the life experiences people have and what they know. I would argue – LOOK around you. Look at the absolute magnitude and beauty and amazing images that surround you every moment of every day. Think for just one moment about the miracle that IS life, about the miracle that you wake up and breathe and live. For argument's sake, I could hear a non-believer saying that he or she could argue that he or she does not believe in God because of the magnitude of suffering, sin, and despair that exists in the world, but I think that is a defeatist's point of view. Think about it – I mean really think about it, the thinking that I truly believe Sam wants us to exercise after attending his lectures. There has to be a point to what we are doing, a deeper meaning to the actions we make every day, repercussions for the lives we lead and the decisions we so choose. If not, why are we here? I am not trying to shift into a more philosophical defense of why God exists, but I felt it was necessary to include a short beginning of why my belief is so strong and why it pains me to hear those who have lost God or who simply do not believe. Each person is entitled to his or her opinion, of course, but I think it can be difficult to understand the reasons why others think the way they do (especially if your belief is grounded in what you know is a firm foundation). God Himself is not meant to be understood or analyzed – He is Who He is and faith means believing that without the most concrete proof. Proof takes away from what faith means. Sometimes, Sam's lectures offend me, and an example is in reference to religion. I do not think everything is funny and I do not think it should be treated as such. When Sam compared Saddam Hussein's picture to a picture of "Jesus", I think that crossed a line. Even if people do not believe in Christianity, Jesus is a historic figure and other religions uphold Him as a good man who performed good deeds and spread the word of God. Why was that necessary? Sometimes, getting a reaction from an audience is not enough to justify an action. … Continued in 2nd post
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
But don't you think it's totally ironic that their drawing of Jesus looks exactly like Saddam Hussein? I mean really…
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lifeonpurpose Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 8:14 pm
what does that have to do with anything…
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Veggie_man Reply:
April 13th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Better yet, how are you so certain your ‘God’ is real? There is absolutely no proof there is a God or gods, yet people are so completely sure one exists. You even comment on the popular line that God is not meant to be understood or analyzed. Don’t you think that if you were sitting down making up a god, that would be the first clause you would put into the religion since that is a pretty flawless argument which required no evidence to back up. There is the same amount of evidence saying there is a god and there isn’t a god, so to be completely sure there is a god is ludicrous.
What about all those other religions that have multiple gods, completely different from your one God? Don’t you think those people are nuts having 100 different gods? Of course it is…. But what is so different about their gods vs. your god. Both of you have the same amount of proof you are right, which is zero. I don’t know your religion, however some religions say those who don’t believe in their religions set of standards, they are going to hell. That’s an awful lot of people who are going to hell.
The point of iunlearn’s comment talking about the picture of Jesus was to show you how political religion is. If Jesus was black, the world would be a much different place, don’t you think. I have a feeling the Europeans would have constructed a different holy figure to follow that looked a little more like them.
You also talk about how we need to be here for a reason. That is what many religions play off of, because if you think about it… why are we here? It’s nice to feel important. People are always going to think, “well, what happens next when I die?”. And it’s a morbid thought to think that you just rot in the ground like everything else. And that’s where religion comes in—it plays into the fear of death. People want to think that when they are put into the ground, life doesn’t stop there—but is there much of a difference from humans and animals? Probably not, but I understand some people need it.
And you are a perfect example of how happy you are that you found God. Maybe you’re one of those people who needs a God, which is fine with me as long as you don’t become a ‘warrior of god’ like some extremists do. It’s just a natural trait of humans. Even Native Americans have constructed there forms of gods, when they had no communication with the rest of the world. With that being said, for people to be so certain there is a god, just isn’t right.
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…Continued from 1st post.. In reference to this lecture in particular, when Sam shifted to talking about "God(s)", I admit my curiosity was peaked and I paid very close attention. I was curious to hear what he had to say about it, especially because of some comments he has made in the past. I think sometimes it is frustrating because Sam doesn't really fight a certain fight – he almost just puts all this information out there, but oftentimes without giving us his actual opinion because he wants to get US thinking. Hearing an argument, though, would really trigger more debate and in-class discussion, I think. So what do I think about what he said in class today? Well, I do not think Sam was "calling out our God(s)", rather, I think he was calling out US and calling out our actions as people who believe in God. I think what he was trying to bring home was that if, now that we have been told in class and in our readings of the horrific conditions around the world, and of the slavery that still exists, and we practice a religion that uphold the sanctity of life, treating others the way we would like to be treated, helping the poor, etc., how can we contribute to the wrongdoings happening around the world (in every day ways like buying chocolate)? I think it is unfair, though, to pose it in a way that makes it seem that everything we are doing, every product we are purchasing, every candy bar that we eat, is equivalent to "eating the flesh" of slave workers. I really do. No one can say and I know as little as the next person, but I believe that when this life is over, people will be judged based upon their actions and their motivations (as well as what they did not do). I also believe that people can be truly sorry for their sins, confess them, vow to live better lives, follow through, and truly make atonement for them. When we think about motivation, however, I think that comes into play with the chocolate example. Sam constantly says he is not trying to make us feel guilty, but I guarantee a good number of students in the class felt guilty after watching the video about the slave children making cocoa on the Ivory Coast and either -(a) did not eat their second piece of chocolate at all or (b) felt somewhat guilty while doing so. Thus, the guilt follows suit after many of his comments irregardless if he "wants us" to feel guilty or not. That being said, I think motivation of what people are doing has to do with how they will be judged. If we look at murder and do NOT take motivation into account, it could be presumed that any individual who commits murder is a horrible person who has no respect for human life and who has committed a grave sin and injustice to mankind. If we DO, however, look at motivation, the outcomes can be varied. First, someone who had an intent to kill, should be judged based upon that and the horrific mindset that must go along with that. On the other hand, if someone was defending him/herself in order to stay alive or keep a loved one alive, a person was still killed, but the motivation was completely different. Thus, I do not think it is fair to call people out generally for these actions when oftentimes, even when people hear these things in lecture and in readings, they may not be thinking about them at all hours of the day. ..
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teenzy212 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
I think you have a really good point, that people are not always thinking about these things. But the fact is, we now KNOW these things, and many very religious people will still buy chocolate bars which have been tainted by slavery, and many very religious people will still buy clothes which have been tainted by slavery. For people who are passionate about following their religion word for word, it's hard for me to understand how they can choose to ignore the items they may be purchasing which are tainted with slavery, and still expect to be forgiven. I am not religious by any means, I think religion causes more despair in the world than greatness. One religion thinks it's better than another religion and so the people of both have a war between each other and so on and so on.
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teenzy212 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:26 pm
CONTINUED FROM POST BELOW…………..However, I do believe in God, a great and powerful creator of everything around us and more. I guess I just don't understand, for people who follow their religion so intimately, why a sin such as buying into slavery–which is esentially what is going on–is expected to be forgiven when their are many other options such as, for example, buying fair trade chocolate; Especially AFTER which the knowledge of slavery is, well, known, and the individual is aware. Yes, of course, one person cannot stop all of the world's problems, but even little things such as buying clothes from WalMart after we know the clothing is tainted by slavery, is a sin which, if continuously repeated, is going to be pretty hard to forgive.
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midge4690 Reply:
April 10th, 2010 at 3:37 am
First of all, I’m not going to pretend like I believe in God, but as much as I see what tryingtomatter4 is saying about God and everything they believe, I have to say that I agree with what Sam was saying in class. Since this is not the first time a blog has been about God, I am not going to get into the reason that I do not believe in God or about my background. However, I will say that I am not against the entire idea of God and I was taught through my bringing up and through school that there is a God and that I should believe in one. Regardless of what I believe or not, I completely agree with what Sam was saying in class about God. Whether or not someone believes in God or not, how can anyone believe that all of the pain and suffering in the world is alright in the eyes of God and he lets it happen. If there is really a God then how can he or she allow everything to happen on a daily basis? Like honestly how can someone, like tringtomatter4, say that people who do not believe in God use that, as in people who do not people in God use the pain and suffering as an excuse because they don’t have anything else to use as an excuse. Now to me that is BULLSHIT. Seriously, there are a hundreds of other reasons that I could come up with of why I do not believe in God, but for one major reason is the pain and suffering that goes on on a DAILY BASIS. For people that do not believe in God, that is just one of the many reasons and to say that is an excuse is BULLSHIT.
In terms of what Sam said in class, I agree with Sam completely because pain and suffering is something that nobody wishes upon themselves. Some people say that how can there be a God with all of the deaths that occur, but I believe that something worse than death is pain and suffering continuously. For example, the slaves on the Ivory Coast go through living hell on a daily basis and are not able to do anything about it or else they will be killed. Think about it. If you were a slave on the Ivory Coast and were picking cocoa beans from day to dawn, would you rather continue your life or die? Personally, I would rather die than suffer through the daily shit that I would go through. So with that in mind how can a so called “GOD” allow all of the pain and suffering that occurs to happen and be okay with it?
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slimshady62 Reply:
April 13th, 2010 at 3:46 am
I agree with you midge4690 but wanted to expand the idea. To begin with, I don't believe in God and would never pretend to. Each of my parents is of a different religion, and I was actually raised Jewish but as soon as I really had a mind of my own I realized how ridiculous religion really is. I know I am probably in a very small minority of people in Soc 119 that thinks this way, but it is something I feel strongly about. It's funny though because sometimes I want to put my ideas out there and enforce them on others in the same way that all of the religious speakers on campus do (or the annoying people handing out bibles, which is also bullshit b/c i bet if I stood outside the HUB handing out atheist material I would probably get in trouble). But either way, back to the original comment, I think its funny when people say things happen because God has a plan. You might as well say things happen because the homeless guy down the street has a plan. I mean what is the basis behind that statement? So God has a plan to make the people of Ivory Coast be tortured so they can harvest the cocoa beans that go into the candy bars that we can buy at the store for less than a dollar? Really? What kind of idiotic plan is that? I mean if you take a step back and think about it- if God is all-knowing and fair, why would he/she have a plan that is so mindless and damaging? I mean if God is really all-knowing he/she would come up with a genius plan that would give everyone who was born, regardless of race/ethnicity, an equal opportunity among EVERYONE to make something of themselves. Obviously, most of the people born in the Ivory Coast do not have that choice. I think it is disrespectful to claim that these poor people suffer because of the plan of a higher being that no one has any evidence exists. And the funny thing is that I'm pretty sure I remember some of the Ivory coast workers in the video talking about God. Okay, like Sam says- I'm rambling now but I mean really how is that they of all people can believe in God still? Well, I think the reason is that if you were in such a horrible, horrible position, where you had to work all day in terrible conditions and get no pay or reimbursement, you would HAVE TO think up some sort of omnipotent, spiritual figure to look towards. Because, God knows (pun intended) no human beings seem to be able to save them at this point…
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…Continued from 2nd post… As Sam also said in class, we cannot think about them all the time or else they will consume us. I think what God wants us to do, too, is to acknowledge that they are happening first and then, second, vow to DO SOMETHING about it in order to help our fellow brothers and sisters out (even if they are on the other side of the globe). The God that I believe in also leads me to believe that we are all more connected than many people know (or choose to acknowledge) and that our actions can indeed make a difference in the lives of those being treated as lesser in a different country, in a different continent, even in a different generation … because actions can be passed down and lead to future improvement, treatment, and/or jurisdiction. As we have learned about so many times in class, HUMANS…PEOPLE let you down – it is a fact of life. Men and women, though given the superior gifts of intellect, soul, and free will, can do terrible things, and can be driven by the most evil of motivators, including money, greed, and selfishness. These can lead to some of the most horrific, inhumane, disgusting, and evil situations and realities in our world today. It is this fact that people let you down that further draws me towards a strong belief in God – because God does not let you down – He is always there and He will not abandon you. Yes, we cannot and do not understand. Bad things happen to good people, natural disasters take thousands of lives, and it oftentimes seems that our (material) world is slowly but surely going to hell. But the faith that I have drives me not to merely accept this horror, but to FIGHT against it. The faith that I have makes me want to work to make the tide of popular opinion change, the materials and money go towards worthwhile causes, and the actions of people to be seen in the eyes of God as good, actions that a just and loving God would condone because they inherently help His children, His people. Reminding believers that what they do has consequences is expected – like I said previously, there has to be a meaning and a reason we are here and thus there has to be an appreciation for what it means to make good decisions and to live a good life. None of us can judge, though, and the meaning of living a good life goes far beyond what products you buy or what kind of chocolate you eat. It includes everything and it also includes the possibility that men and women can start over because I believe in a God who is always standing, open-armed, for His children who have gone astray to return to Him. He has to know how difficult this life is, and how much more difficult this life can be for some as opposed to others. Questioning our decisions, though, on the basis of a Higher Good approving of them, however, could never be a bad thing. I hope at least some of my points have come across in this post! After all, WWJD?
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I am a strong believer of God. Therefore I believe that everyone is put on this earth for a reason. As devastating as the lives of these slaves are, I think that God has a greater reward for them once they leave this place. Also, God does not put us through things that we are not able to control. Think about it why those people and not us? He has a plan and knows what he is doing. As it is said, God's time is the best time. We, humans, may think their lives are terrible and unfair but in his eyes it may be golden. Who truly knows whats right and hats wrong. They might be suffering physically but they have a inner peace none of us in the free world can ever achieve.
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Do you think you would be writing this if you were living in a refugee camp in Port-au-Prince, Haiti? Just wondering.
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ezf5009 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:58 pm
Your last statement really stuck out to me. You believe that people in extreme suffering have a special inner peace that we can’t understand or do not have? Wow, that’s quiet bold. And I highly doubt people living in genocide or slavery would agree with that statement. In fact, that is probably the farthest thing from the truth. I mean it would be nice to believe that, right. Because those people suffer more than we can even understand, and to believe they have an inner peace would be nice. Although I’ve never spent time in a refugee camp or with slaves, from what I’ve read and watch on documentaries I doubt that is the reality of the situation.
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dabusiness Reply:
April 10th, 2010 at 12:49 am
I have a hard time reading this comment. God does not put us through things we can not control? Why them and not us? Do you think they deserve it? Or you just think you or I could not handle it? These people being beaten, being forced to work under harsh conditions, forced into prostitution, all 27 million people suffering in slavery do not have an inner peace I desire. It is not just physical abuse they suffer, I would say it is mostly an inner hurt they feel. A hurt of being owned and controlled by someone. Of being afraid at all times and wanting to be back with their families and at their homes. If you think it is in God’s plan to have all these people suffer, did you feel nothing when you ate the chocolate or saw the video because it was just God’s plan for the boy to be beaten and other people to be beaten and left for dead? I do not understand how someone could not feel in their heart what is being done is wrong.
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j0hnnytsunami Reply:
April 10th, 2010 at 1:02 am
Yes god my have a plan for everyone, but where does it end. This is horrible for people like them, and under no circumstances should they be forced to be in these slave camps or being held against there will. I don't care what god as planned for them in the after life, these lives taht we treasure so much should be saved and they should not have to be in this situation. Personally as a strong believer of GOD as well, I don't see a reason for any of this, and your comment sucked. The plan that god has for them clearly is not a good one, life is cherished not a plan.
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MeghanYingling Reply:
April 15th, 2010 at 3:12 am
First of all, why does it matter if they have a better life in the afterlife? They are suffering now. They are being tortured and killed every day. Yeah, maybe they will have a better after life, but maybe not. Who knows? They might have just a shitty after life. If I was being tortured right now, I would not be praying to God for a better after life, I would be praying to him for a better current life. And how can you say they have an inner peace? First of all, you or I don’t know that they do so that statement is a little bold. And how can you even think they have an inner peace?! They are being destroyed physically and mentally. They will be scared forever with the memory of what happened to them, if their situation even gets better. That does not sound like inner peace to me.
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mattmcgloin Reply:
April 16th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
i agree with what you are saying. i am a catholic and i think the God has a different plan for each individual on the planet today. sure some people live in poverty and slavery but i believe God has a plan for them in the afterlife. Whether you are up or down you have to believe God is with you at all times and that you always have to have faith in him and believe that everything he does for you he does for a reason. And it is not just God it is whoever you believe in. you have to have faith in them and trust them always.
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I will not lie in saying that I have questioned God on several occasions, but I still believe he is a wonderful God that will provide. He has helped me get this far in life after family life was crumbling around me in high school. Let me put it this way, without God I probably would not be in college right now.
I think it is natural we question our faith because I feel believing is the hardest thing in religion, but then most people learn to walk essentially blindly. For others, not so much, but whatever works for them.
I know God has a purpose for people especially if they ask him to show them the way. I did about four years ago and I am less than a month away from earning my degree in journalism. Do I believe God shapes all aspect of our lives? No, why? He will help us when we call, but we have to get ourselves going on our own. He cannot always hold our hand for everything. He gave us laws to follow and the mindset to do good so it is our job to fulfill that. If we struggle along the way, then we can call on him for help because he will do so.
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Since I'm constantly in a place of questioning and confusion about what I believe religiously and spiritually, it is tough to be offended or surprised by what Sam said. All his comments did was get me to think more and more about what I do believe in. However, I do not believe that a loving God would let suffering go unpunished, and not reward those who were suffering. I'm not quite sure yet if this contradicts the current situation, or if I believe the reward and punishment would occur in the afterlife. As Sam said, it is hard to imagine being in the same place in the afterlife as a slave who worked tirelessly for no money and had no freedom.
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
That's all you should be doing….questioning. Rock on for that.
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I understand the point that Sam was trying to make, but I just can't agree with it completely. I am a Christian, and I don't feel like God is going to say I was sinning every time ate a piece of chocolate just because it was made from something I had no control over. Sam was putting the whole "pearly gates" to the extreme. Do you feel like God thinks that every single person can fix every little problem on this earth? No, because some issues call for a large movement of people joined together to change. Lets go back to the United States slavery days. What did it take to stop slavery? A whole war between the North and the South, and only at defeat did the slave owners have to give in. You have to put yourself in the mindset of these slave owners. They are making millions of dollars off these slaves, and will definitely be stubborn about giving them up unless they are forced into a situation where they must "admit defeat." Now how can we do this? I really don't know, but I know it must be something bigger than just individuals. To be honest, I feel that Penn State alone won't even make that big of a difference. I know it has to start somewhere, but you have to be realistic. If during the Civil War, it took a few STATES to fight against each other to stop slavery forever, then what do you expect must happen to make these COUNTRIES stop their slavery. I'm not suggesting that war must commence, but it's definitely going to require a massive movement. Who knows what God has planned for these slave owners and the slaves. Can you be comfortable enough to just know that they're all going to die eventually and that the slave owners will go to hell and the innocent slaves to heaven? Or do you want some sort of suffering behind this? (in which case would be wrong because revenge is not of God) The whole point in the end is that you can't make eating a piece of chocolate a sin. Yes, I feel awful about what's happening to these slaves to the point where I was almost at tears, but I feel that this slavery issue is beyond just me. God understands the heart. I don't feel like he put me on this earth to stop slavery, but there are people out there whose purpose is for that. Just as people are called to teach, be doctors, lawyers, whatever you can think of, there are people out there who God put on earth to stop the slavery movement. Awareness is the key. We're doing it at Penn State, but how do we reach countries on these issues? God works in mysterious ways. As long as we don't give up on him, he won't give up on us. Those slaves definitely didn't give up on God, and he proved to set them free from their bondage. You just never know.
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
This is a valid response. Clearly you're thinking about this. That's all I wanted to see happen. Rock on.
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So yea I was kind of upset about how Sam approached letting us know of how our Gods would act towards us when we die. First of all I really don't think we will be judged like that I know he is not trying to force anything on us he is just trying to play devils advocate to get our gears turning, but really I think this goes back to the steps we have been learning about in class. The thing is, is that many people are blind to this other world. Many people do realize this is whats happening to other people so what we can live in this over abundant society.However, everyone who was in class yesterday now got slapped with a tiny bit of reality. These people are over there harvesting chocolate, and they don't even know what it is! To be honest there is not much we can do, except by from producers such as Fair Trade. But this little lecture could also spark people to go further, and really get involved to help these people. That is why Sam made an oath with that woman, and I really respect him for that. I think that our society can be very ignorant to our world because certain things do not apply to them. However just a little bit of knowledge could go along way. Getting back to religion…..I wish we would have had this lecture before Lent started, it might have made giving up chocolate a little easier…no no but on a serious note this lecture did make me feel a certain way. I want to do something about it, but its just a matter of where to start, because everything in our daily lives might have a part of slavery in it. I think if many people gave it a though and acknowledged where things came from and respected them more God would see that in someone when they pass away. We were all placed on this earth for different reasons and I don't think you can judge a slave vr us at the pearly gates like Sam had stated. I could be very wrong, but I just don't think that in the end that's how it will be. Like tahirjw stated above, awareness is key. That is totally the truth. opening ourselves up to the truth without denying the world we live in is half the battle. It definitely changed they way I think about my consumption. I just hope to continue learning about what is going on in the world. I don't want to be ignorant anymore. I really want to know what is out there, because many people in our society become so caught up in their own problems they don't realize how good that have it.
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TorreyLFranklin Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
If your god, or gods, are not judgmental then what are they? I am not trying to say you are wrong or right but I am curious as to what kind of god you imagine other than one who critiques our life and our decisions. My belief in God is one that is judgmental because it, meaning God, has given us the gift of free will. It has placed a portion of our destiny in our own hands so if we choose to throw that destiny away and not make the best of ourselves how can it or they not judge us?
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Alright I admit this is a tough topic to touch on. I think it does matter what we do every single minute, it does have an effect either big or small or something or someone right next to you or halfway across the world. With sam’s exact relation to the topic, the 700 of us can make some change (small or big) to making slavery extinct in the future now that we are aware about it. I was born Hindu and celebrate every seasonal holiday and enjoy practicing the traditions that come with it. Growing up, I was taught about every religion, never once did my family forbid me from celebrating my friends holidays and even joint in occasionally. In fourth grade I was vacationing at a beach with my family and made a deal with whoever is up there to pass me in math with the promise to believe in god forever. And that’s exactly what happened, while I do believe in something, how I came to the place of accepting myths, wars and due to religion has changed a lot over the years. I always thought of myself as spiritual, who did not believe in a figure of what ‘god’ looked like, but I saw it in everything around me. Books, the earth below us, animals, you name it, I respect it. It does not have a face, voice or form; I see it in my dreams. My family never forced me to pray or read scriptures; I did it on my own. Somehow I sense now that they knew never to force their ideas on me and now we all are spiritual in the same exact way. However I do think while organized religion may serve the purpose of a moralistic guidebook to an honorable lifestyle, it divides people more than bring them together. People get mad and offended when they are told that something is better than them right? Maybe be right about something as dynamic as the ‘truth’? Well it is only human to do so but we do have the ability to shed away these practices that divide us and label us good or bad. The older I get, I find a better way to approach the true meaning behind these holy books, be it the Quran, Torah, Upanishads or the Bible. I do believe in reincarnation, spirits, other universes and other cool things science can never put its foot down on. I also get that science is largely made up of theory and not proof. We can all be ‘realistic’ and ‘practical’, but what’s the point in that? Whatever is out there is undesirable but we all tend to talk about it like we gave birth to it, then again maybe we did. I simply do not get offended with what this professor says in this class and I do not have the right words to explain why.
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Being a Christian, I was kind of offended when Sam was talking about this. I didn’t like the way he seemed to be mocking Christianity, like when he was saying about the “pearly gates” and almost making fun of it. Is he implying that I’m going to hell because I’m not doing anything about slave labor? I’m sure that the God that I believe in understand that there is physically nothing I can do about the slavery and Sam contradicted himself because he said that the most important thing is feeling some kind of way about it, which I do.
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theglory Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
I completely agree with what you did say. Being Christian also, I was also offended by his remarks. I think he can have his opinions, but I don’t think he should criticize my beliefs and make a mockery of them. It just isn’t really appropriate because I didn’t sign up for a religious studies class. I understand that religion is tied with race, but there are other things tied with race also. I hope that in the future classes; we don’t discuss religion as much. It’s just a personal issue and choice. Nobodies opinions should be scrutinized or beliefs should be placed on anyone else.
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Veggie_man Reply:
April 13th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
How was he criticizing both of your beliefs? If you ‘feel some way about something’, and I’m assuming you think it’s not right, then do something about it. That was the point he was trying to get across. If you believe that God created everyone (or had something to do with creating everyone), then you should feel compelled to help your fellow humans. It’s certainly much easier to sit back and be complacent, which it sounds like both of you are going to do, but chances are, your god would like you to do something about it. In fact, your god is going to think it’s fucked up that you sat back, and if you purchase slave made items, fully supported, slave labor.
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I think that if you fully understand your religion, and how your God deals with sin then you would not even questioned what Sam said. I am a Christian and I believe that God forgives all of your sins if you ask forgiveness, and if you are truly sorry. After all, Jesus did die on the cross to save us from our sins. I know we all probably know that slavery existed around the world, but if we did not know what was going on and how we were directly affected the way these people live we would not be perpetuating it. Of course now it is too late, because the chocolate business is so enormous that it would take millions and millions of people to stop slavery. I think that Sam should not have spoken on such a topic if he did not know exactly what he was speaking of. I feel like he was trying to call anyone who believes in God a hypocrite in a way because he is saying do we think we’re going to go to heaven as if the slaves had never committed a sin in their life. NO matter how hard your life is no matter what sin you committed, God will forgive you for it if you are truly in the bottom of your heart sorry. One of those slaves could have stolen something or did something much worst; does that mean that he should go to heaven over me because I helped his slave owner prosper? I am not saying that what we are doing is right, but Sam has not right to judge anyone or their actions. I believe that slavery is wrong because no one has the right to exploit another human being. However, I also believe that when judgment day comes we will be judge based on our sins individually so I am pretty sure that these slaves are not exempt from judgment. Even if they were slaves and had a horrible life that does not make them any better of a person than I am. I do know that in the Beatitudes we should help those that are less fortunate than we are, and I am totally fine with doing that. I feel that that’s what people are here to do; however, I think the only one who should able to judge us is God. I think that no human has the right to tell me what God is going to me come judgment day if I do not do something that pleases them. I believe that people in glass houses should not throw stones, and yeah Sam is telling us all of these things but how much of this stuff does he actually live by?
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The thing about God and religion is that its all different. Everyone is right in their own way. Everyone thinks they're correct and that everyone else is wrong. It's just another thing in the world to argue about and have your own opinion about. I believe in God, but its my God. And I respect everyone else's opinions and beliefs about religion and God. And maybe there isn't a God, our brains aren't capable of knowing this for sure. So who is right? Who's God is judging? Who knows the absolute truth? Who gives a shit? Honestly, be a good person to the best that you can and see what happens after life. You could know everything about any religion and call yourself for example a Christian, and be a terrible person. I just can't think about this anymore.
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I am glad this question has come up, and the way Sam brought it up in class. To be honest I try to follow my religion of Islam, but I know I can follow it better than I can, and there are many reasons for it but none are excusable. The point I am trying to make is that people try to be all religious and tell other people to do things, but in reality half the time they don’t do it, which makes them hypocrites, and being a hypocrite is being worse than the person not following the religion. I myself try to keep my hypocrisy at a low, but yet at times I fail and tell people to do things that I am inconsistent in doing. What Sam said in class is absolutely true, when I die and go in my grave, and god asks me about my actions on earth I really won’t know how to respond. And Sam was right when I die I won’t be compared to someone here in the United States or another top world country. I am going to be in the same standard, the same level as everyone in this world, regardless of race, ethnicity, and wealth. And to me when people have more money you have they have more of a responsibility in helping the underprivileged people. I understand that you worked hard for your money, but when you die all that money you saved up isn’t going to buy you a place in heaven your actions on this earth will. And I always try to stick by this belief and eating the chocolates that I do without knowing where they are from is my fault, if I can make sure what I eat doesn’t have pork in it, then I should make sure what I eat isn’t from some slave who is being forced to make it. After seeing the video and hearing the guy say that we are eating his flesh really hit the heart, because I realized that I am more privileged and I take advantage of it, and when I die I will have to answer for my actions and I am scared of that day, and as of right now am not ready at all to answer for my actions at all. Sam always says he doesn’t want us to change at times, but just wants us to get to think, and by him bringing that up the rest of the class that’s all I was thinking about, if I buy a house worth about $250,000 that’s equivalent to the 125,000 people that live on $2 a day. All this right here is my personal belief, to me my life on this earth is a test, and right now as Sam made me realized I am failing big time.
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keane Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
I agree with you said about how Sam brought the whole "God" topic up in class. I thought that the reaction of Sam bringing up the topic of God would spark reactions a lot more intense than when he brought up menstruation, because religion is considered to be the most sensitive topic of modern times, but I was surprised that there were no "ooh"s and "aah"s, and people remained in their seats and did not leave etc. I think that people have an idea that when it comes to religion, people have very different opinions and that it is best to not take offense in that. I agree with what Sam about God comparing to us to just another, random person when we have to answer to him. And that random person could well be one of the cocoa slaves that we saw in the video, and yes, I definitely wouldn't want that. I know that sometimes Sam might sound a little crazy, but I agree with a lot of the things that he has to say about almost everything. I believe that it is time for us to step up together and bring injustices such as the cocoa slaves to an absolute minimum.
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Another classic God vs. Religion problem. Sam makes a very valid point in calling religion and religious beliefs/believers hypocritical. This is not to say that God/Supreme Being is a bad person, but it's easy to fall victim to hypocrisy in a religious setting. After hearing thursday's lecture, I remembered my church experience over Easter Sunday. It's odd to me how everyone acts so righteous and worthy and humble, yet they are partaking in the violation of other people on a daily basis. Every day they vote to enslave human beings with their dollar. The pastor's expensive suit, grown from wool probably harvested by slaves somewhere. The church building materials, possibly collected/mined/whatever from some mine or forest by slaves. Yet everyone wants to say how much they help people, and how they are doing God's work. I very much doubt God wants them to be ensuring that the cyclical nature of slavery be continued, so they can drive around and buy things and pretend like they are being good little christians/catholics/muslims/whatever. That's where the hypocrisy comes into play, because while they try to follow some religion and its ideals, they end up breaking them anyways due to the culture we live in. We have voted as Americans (and all 1st world countries) that we will reward business. Not good business, but simply business. With no checks and balances on it, we have blossomed into this consumeristic material driven world. It's not even correct to call it capitalism, it's consumerism, and there is a difference. That difference keeps us buying from wal-mart and target and whatever cheap retail stores there are because we like our things. It's too bad that almost all those "things" have had slave hands touch them somewhere. So it's hard to not think religious people are being hypocritical, because most holy books teach on helping those less fortunate, as Mr. Beatitudes mentioned earlier, but when you are part of the system thats destroying others, your holier-than-thou mentality is really silly. It's as if you are cutting someone with a knife with one hand, and handing them a bandaid with the other. It just doesnt make sense. So for all the charitable church donations/organized relief efforts/missions trips/etc, you are really trying to smooth over the real issue, which is that your actions and your money and your dollars are the reason why these people are in such dire circumstances. True, the people of some tribe in Africa may benefit from your church fund, but the people in South America are being butt fucked by you every morning when you flip on your instant coffee machine and make a good ol' cup of joe. Im quite sure your God doesn't want you to be doing that, because in reality, no one is actually following their holy texts at all. Call it a problem for being an American
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
I didn't call believers "hypocritical." I'm just raising questions that most believers have already thought about.
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I think that this is a very interesting question, because when Sam started talking about Gods etc, I pretty much thought about the same thing, that how would the people who consider themselves to be religious take it? Wouldn't they be mad or feel angered by the way that Sam openly talked about what the Gods might do when we have to answer for our sins? But, surprisingly, people just let Sam go on, there were no "oohh"s or "aaah"s, or people leaving, like they did when Sam started talking about periods, which I found really funny yet interesting. I thought that Sam talking about Gods would bring about a stronger reaction than when he talked about periods, but well, I guess I was wrong about that. I think that this was so because religion is a topic that is prone to a lot more sensitivity than pretty much everything else, and that people have very different opinions about it etc. A major reason for why religion is talked about so much is because everyone does not agree on one particular thing and pretty much everyone has different opinions on a lot of aspects of religion and Gods etc. I know that some people really don't like how Sam is so open about everything, but personally, I think that the way he presents himself, the way he talks etc, sure it's unorthodox, but I think that it's very inspirational, and I agree with a lot of the stuff that he has to say about almost everything. I believe that we, people who are a lot more fortunate than the people shown in the video, have a lot more responsibility to make sure, or at least try to make sure, that the injustices that those people face and suffer from are kept to an absolute minimum. And I also agree with what he said about what God would say when we have to answer him, and how he is not going to let us get away easily with our sins, and how he might actually compare us not to a person who is in a similar position but just a normal, random person, and how that random person may be one of the cocoa slaves etc. I think that we should all think about and pay close attention to all that Sam says, because even though he may sound a little crazy at times, I think that pretty much everything he says makes a lot of sense if you look at it the way I look at it, and that people should learn from Sam has to say about everything.
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As a Christian, I too was a bit offended by how far Sam went with his argument. I really did like how he made me and other believers question this aspect of our religion and look outside of our lives and at the injustices shown in the video. I don't think the resemblance of Jesus to Saddam Hussein had any value whatsoever in the beginning of the semester, and I'm a little confused as to why it was brought up again in this forum. Yes, Jesus most likely is not the picturesque white man that our culture makes him out to be. And yes, he may resemble Saddam Hussein, but he may also resemble other men from that area of the world. I personally see faith as something that is inherently mine and I do not pretend that there aren't injustices going in the world. My God is awesome and merciful, but he also punishes people everyday. We do not live in a utopia and we cannot think that we ever will. There will always be people putting others down and being put down themselves but that is where faith comes in. Some people see God at their worst moments, and without faith in a God, what would people like the cocoa workers put their trust and faith in? Faith is hoping for something better and believing that we don't just die after our physical bodies are no more. While I greatly appreciate seeing the hard things in life, it doesn't usually make my belief falter, it makes it grow stronger through that reflection that Sam is wanting us to have.
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Though I was raised a Christian, I am FAR from familiar with the religion. My family stopped going to church when I was four and my brother threw up in the middle of Christmas Eve service. Regardless, I don't think you need to follow a religion to believe in a higher power at all. I do think there are higher powers that shape our trajectories in life, but I don't know what. I like to believe in reincarnation and karma, that innocent, good people who are suffering in the world today will be compensated in their next life. And while there's no way to provide that any religious or spiritual belief is true, the fact is that our belief makes us happy. Some of us believe in God and that belief makes us feel safe and secure. I believe in reincarnation because it's pretty cool, and karma because it seems fair.
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Okay, people, let's try and take some deep, slow breaths here. Take a second to un-bunch those panties. Good? Okay, let's do this.
First, I really don't want to sound scolding or rude, but some of you have asserted in your comments how offended you were that Sam brought up accountability and God in the lecture. It's kind of beyond me how people could be more offended that Sam challenged their spiritual thought processes than they are that such a great percentage of our goods in the U.S. are made with slave labor that supporting it (financially, at least) is extremely hard to avoid (you're pissed off about the Jesus-Saddam thing?)
(Seriously?)
Some of you have offered up reasons as to why you really shouldn't feel responsible for changing anything. For example, several people referenced this idea of powerlessness–this idea that God 'gets' that you're just one person and can't be held responsible for where the stuff you buy comes from. Assuming at least some of you are Christian: Do you people read the bible? Do you know what God asks of people? He had a senior citizen construct a giant boat and collect a bunch of wild animals. He told a guy to sacrifice his own son as a test of faith. He turned some lady into a pillar of salt because she literally couldn't keep her eyes on the prize. But buying slave made goods ad nauseum is fine because, hey, you're just one person! And God gets that.
Here's a thought: take the chocolate video back to your church. Share it with your congregation. Organize a sale of fair-trade chocolate to educate the community whilst raising funds that you can then donate to Bales's organization, Free the Slaves. Organize letter-writings to your congresspeople, as well as to some of the companies that benefit from slave labor and tell them that you've had enough. God's probably going to understand that you maybe tried to end slavery but failed more than He's going to understand that you decided it was a foregone conclusion and couldn't be bothered to put in the effort.
Of course, then there's also the "God's plan" argument. It's in God's plan for these people to be slaves and, although it's sad, God will recognize their suffering and they will be rewarded in heaven. It's all okay in the end because suffering makes these people inherently better than us, so that evens it all out. First, how far does "the plan" extend? If I find a way to help these slaves, am I going against His plan? What if I choose to do nothing? How do you know God's plan for you isn't to have you devote just some small portion of your time and energy to fighting for global equity? (And if it is, and you just chill in your room and do nothing, will He come find you to let you know you're slacking?)
God may have a plan, but if you're all about the Bible, you should probably have noticed by this point that God also wants us to help our neighbors. Just take the story of the Good Samaritan. After Jesus shares the story, he says, "go now and do the same," meaning that we should go into the world and act as the Good Samaritan did–that is, we should have mercy and compassion for those around us. So come on, have some mercy and compassion. Don't deflect these people by pardoning their suffering as some sort of "free pass into heaven" card.
You can disagree with me if you want. You can tell me I'm disrespectful or whatever–that's fine, I'm sorry you feel that way. But just do me one favor, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
and ask yourself if you really believe that it's fine to ignore the slavery issue, or if you just want to believe it is because you know that trying to fix it would require a lifestyle change.
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Alright. This is the thing that completely pisses me off. Why can’t people who believe in a Christian god have a brain? Because that’s what I’m hearing when people assume I don’t think about or question my religion. We’re not all mindless drones that believe whatever we hear. That is not what my religion is about. Why don’t other people understand that? Christian religions, and really any religion, aren’t about going through the motions. They’re about personal faith and growth. While I realize many people who say they believe in a religion do in fact go through the motions, but they shouldn’t be considered the norm or a model for other believers.
I’ve been raised Catholic. It was my parents’ choice to do so. They picked what they would teach me and what I would believe as I got older. However, I went through a phase when I questioned my faith. If God loves us so, why is there pain? Why is there suffering? Why did He give us free will and the ability to possibly go to Hell if ultimately, He really just wants us to be in Heaven with Him? These are questions that I still don’t have answers to, and in reality, I probably never will. I not only questioned my religion at one point; I hated it. I thought it was stupid and that the Church was a lie. I was tired of being made fun of in middle and high school for believing in Jesus and thinking God was real. Then it hit me. I don’t know what it was, but I decided that believing in Christ would be my choice because I had a personal relationship with Him. You may laugh and say, “How can you have a ‘personal relationship’ with someone you can’t even talk to and you don’t even know if real or not?” Touché. It’s a good point, however, isn’t that the definition of faith?
If you’re not going to believe in a god, just do us all a favor and don’t look down on those who do. It doesn’t make us foolish or unintelligent. If anything, by doing so you are making yourself look ignorant. The way I look at it is this: if I go through life trying to be a good person because I believe there is a god and I’m trying to live by his or her rules and then die only to find there isn’t a god, well, what harm is there in that? Who have I hurt along the way? If anything you may think I may not have lived my life to the fullest, but I would have to disagree. Just remember that points like the one Sam made may not always be news to a person of faith.
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iunlearn Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
In truth, what I have found in my life is that people get complacent. We get comfortable and stop asking those big questions. The important ones like the one I was raising in class. Well, I think it's important. So perhaps you've thought about them a great deal but it's ALWAYS good to rethink and see if you get somewhere new with your answer.
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amd5442 Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I want to say that we do not look down upon those who do believe, but I feel it is my burden to open your mind to reality. The points Sam made should open your mind regardless of whether or not you have faith.
I think you and many other people on this message board are adherents to FAITH not Christianity. You must first find faith and then apply the Bible and all of its practices BECAUSE YOU HAVE FAITH. You utilize this faith in order to practie your religion- and this occurs in all religions, not just Christianity. This faith is what holds religion together. You have to believe.
Being from a Christian family, the church I was raised around is actually named Faith Presbyterian. I can not agree with you more that your religion is about having a personal relationship with God. This relationship has given you faith. This faith is what you hold on to when things hit rock bottom. What I’m really getting at is that you do not need religion to have faith in something. I have faith that because I live my life in a just manner now, I will be in a better place (whether that may be rotting away six feet below, or if its Heaven as described in the bible) when I die. I do not attempt to explain what happens when we die, and I’m comfortable accepting the fact that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
I believe in karma. I feel that what people do on a daily basis will come around. I realized the other day that karma is not based in any one religion, but has fundamental support from the smartest man to ever study science. Newton’s third law of physics clearly states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction–in both magnitude and direction. I had never thought about applying this type of knowledge to abstract ideas like religion. However, this is so true in every aspect that is has become a Law. I never ever thought about extending laws of physics to religion and karma, but it just makes so much sense on EVERY LEVEL; take any situation and it will apply. Think about it. When you push a person, that person is exerting a force equally as hard back at you-you just cant see it because they are the one who flies away when you pushed them. So when you do a harmful deed to another person, that action is accompanied by an action EQUAL in magnitude (how severe ) and OPPOSITE in direction-meaning its coming to you now, not originating from you.
Faith is an incredible thing, and I can not disagree with you about the role that faith plays in most our lives. However, we need to take a look why we need this faith. We have an inherent part about us that makes us question why we are here; some people just cannot stomach the fact that we are part of a NATURALLY occurring, beautiful Earth. I am not a religious person at all, in fact I think what Sam said in class was absolutely on point- but I HAVE FAITH. I have faith because like you, I have developed a personal connection with God. However, I do not adhere to the outrageous hypocrisies of organized religion. I am infuriated when people put their religion on a pedestal and look down upon other religions.
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Sam, as we have seen, tends to say things that are bold to say the least. Although I am usually not one to be bothered by people expressing their feelings/opinions, in this particular situation I surprisingly am. It seems apparent that Sam does not believe in what most of us would call God (although his rather annoying story about getting high and seeing “God” may suggest otherwise, it of course is merely a shot at entertainment.) The fact that Sam feels this way is fine; many people indeed do not believe in any type of religion. What bothers me is his attempt to preach this ideology to the 800 students he has control over for an hour and fifteen minutes. This brings me back to what I deem one of the biggest weaknesses of the course: so much of the material we are taught is not factual in nature and rather is almost always opinion based (and for that matter, his opinion). This wouldn’t be as big of an issue if people weren’t actually trying to use the information that was being taught to them. For example, the random statistics that are frequently posted on his slides rarely show any source or detail regarding how they were obtained, which makes me question their validity. When you are presenting such bold facts and surprising ones for that matter, you need to provide some sort of reference to where they originated. I digress….
Back to religion. I guess my question is, what does Sam hope to gain or for us to gain by calling out the validity and existence of our respective gods? Is there actually a gain, or is this just a ploy to get us to think like him? I think the irony is that he once specified that he was not trying to get us to think like him, but his speeches are so often targeted at getting us to accept his viewpoint. Religion is perhaps the most intricate topic of discussion there is, largely because it is a topic people feel very strongly for or against. If Sam doesn’t believe in God, that’s fine, but it is wrong of him to preach it to us. This isn’t an LGBT talk where the answer is clean cut (ie LGBT harassment is wrong); this is an on going philosophical debate that may never have an answer that humans can actually grasp or understand. In this sense, Sam is being borderline offense. He is questioning peoples’ beliefs about a topic that has no answer or know resolution. What makes him so sure? No one is sure. There in lies the concept of faith. If you want to be an atheist that is fine and that is your right, but don’t force your ideas upon students in a race relations class. And for the record, I’m not even that religious.
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I don't believe Sam called out my God at all, in fact I think he called out his own perception of God. Why should I be angry or mad at Sam for having his own opinion and belief system which is different than mine? Do I know what God is truly up to? Absolutely not it's to complex IN MY OPINION. I knew what he was trying to do with his speech about religions and what have you, but he was also pushing his own thoughts. I think Sam doesn't realize he isn't just having a discussion sometimes, but rather, he is spewing out what he thinks. Sam doesn't tell me what to think as does anyone else. Sure people have an influence on what I think, but they don't tell me what to think. Is Sam or anyone else wrong in their thinking compared to mine? no way jose, but am I also wrong? maybe? I can not be certain on what "God" is and what is the "right" religion. To me God is a big tree full of all religions that make up a certain essence. Now in my opinion a religion like Scientology is fantastical in theory, because even the dude said he invented it and it's not a work of "God". Maybe he's right though? I have no idea on what exactly everyone's opinion about this topic is. I see a lot of people getting upset over the Jesus looks like Sadaam Hussein thing. Maybe Jesus did look like that. The history channel recently had a special about Jesus and they did a 3d mapping of the Shroud of Turin. The mapping indicates Jesus looked completely different than the one Sam showed, and this is way more recent. and even confirmed by the scientists who worked on the Shroud from the beginning and said it wasn't of Jesus. After further review they believe it was. Everyone makes a big deal about what color Jesus was. Really who cares. What color is God? Nobody can prove that . Also who knows what God's plan is I hear that coming up as well. Maybe he has a plan and maybe he doesn't. Maybe the people who believe are just assholes. Sam said that people are born into socioeconomic luck for the most part. People look at the chocolate makers and can tell that's slavery. A lot of people are slaves and don't even know it. Some people look like they have it all but really are the most tortured. Could be that going through all they've went through makes them feel clean int he end, as they know they have no guilt, and are allowed to be angry. God gave man free will in my opinion. What man does with that free will, especially in this case certain regions, is very seeing. Man can abuse his free will or help others with his free will.
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I think that the comment Sam made was really interesting. The idea was something that I never really thought of before about how many of us believe in God, and yet we come from all different situations and circumstances, but yet we're all "judged" the same. I do believe in God, but sometimes I wonder if there is a God because if so, then why do such catastrophic, awful events occur. I really was not offended by this remark because it is true. If we are "all going to be judged by God," how is it ok that these people were slaves and I benefited from it. Anyway, I just thought it was a really interesting and eye opening point about how one lives their life.
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Firstly, I don’t like when Sam talks about religion or gods at all. He has said that he doesn’t like to offend anyone or push his views onto anyone, but I think he is hitting a nerve when he talks about being religious and gods not being there for us or how can a god allow this? I’m pretty sure I didn’t sign up for a religious class and I would appreciate if it wasn’t discussed as much as it is. I understand that religion is tied to race, but there are other topics about race we can talk about. Religion is a personal preference and nobody should be ashamed or criticized in what they believe in. I hope in the future, the lectures will not come back to religion.
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ImRonBurgundy Reply:
April 9th, 2010 at 11:38 pm
"I didn't sign up fro a religion class" WHAT?!?!
Actually you did. You signed up for a sociology class. Religion is one of, if not the most influential factors affecting human sociology. Entire civilizations have been built lives around religion. You can't possibly try to study the reasons people do what they do without taking religion into consideration. Taking religion out of the lecture just bc it "rubs people the wrong way" is both irresponsible and detrimental to the learning process.
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JulietaVenegas Reply:
April 10th, 2010 at 3:36 am
I agree with you in that we all make our own decisions when it comes to religion and that we shouldn't be addressed in a demeaning manner when it comes to this topic. Although I do not consider myself to be "very religious," I do believe in a God/ a greater good, and I definitely felt as though Sam was in a bit of an attack mode due to his self proclaimed state of ranting. I do believe in heaven, and although I don't quite imagine it to be the way that Sam was referring to on Thursday, I was still thrown off by what he was saying because it definitely felt as though he was mocking what the Biblical version of Heaven. I don't mock Sam because he has Libertarian views, so why should he mock me or anyone else because of what our religious views may be?
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I love THON. I have participated in THON for the last two years and it is possibly the most beautiful thing I’ve ever participated in. That said…what is more of a tragedy? People succumbing to cancer, a natural cause of death, which was not created by society or people succumbing to slavery and sweatshop labor, which was created by society? Part of me thinks the latter. If half the people that participated in THON joined that anti-sweatshop club I honestly think they would have much more of an impact.
I hate to sound like a pessimist but I think real answer is that we simply don’t care about those slaves/sweatshop workers. Because of them, we get cheap products, and continue to live are ridiculously luxurious lifestyles. It’s way easier to find some way to justify it by saying bullshit things like “its out of our control” or “its part of God’s plan”
Lets just be honest: it is way easier and way more enjoyable to live our privileged lives in denial/ ignorance than it is to actually do something about it. We can stop these social injustices. All we have to do is want it bad enough, and right now we just don't.
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Here’s a quick run through of my spiritual history. I was a raised in a traditional Irish Catholic family, went to Catholic school, and didn’t really question my beliefs until about a year ago. I looked around at all the other religions around the world that we Christians brush off as being not true like Islam, African Tribal religions, etc. I came to realize that the bible can’t be trusted and that in reality there is no evidence for Christianity or any other religion for that matter. Some days I wake up and I see so much beauty and complexity in the world and I feel like surely some intelligent being created this. Other days I look at the lack of evidence and the darker side of the world and believe that certainly there can’t be a god. It literally changes day by day. I guess that makes me agnostic?
Anyway, I thought the girl who complained about the Jesus and Saddam Hussein picture comparison is being way too sensitive. It's a joke. If you’re a white person, your church probably hangs up crosses with Jesus portrayed as w white guy. Now there’s something to be offended by.
I also agree with the dude who thinks that IF there’s a god who judges people, then she’s sure as hell not going to buy the “I’m just one person I can’t make a difference” argument.” The religious people should be the first ones in line to help. But they rarely are.
I actually went to that talk that the United Students against Sweatshops and I was blown away by the sweatshop laborers and the stories they told. The saddest part is that after their college speaking tour, they are going back to work in the sweatshops once again. What was even sadder is that only a handful of people went to the talk and far fewer actually care enough to get involved.
How is it that thousands of Penn State students can raise $7 million for childhood cancer every year, but less than 50 participate in the anti-slavery/anti sweatshop club?
I love THON. I have participated in THON for the last two years and it is possibly the most beautiful thing I’ve ever participated in. That said…what is more of a tragedy? People succumbing to cancer, a natural cause of death, which was not created by society or people succumbing to slavery and sweatshop labor, which was created by society? Part of me thinks the latter. If half the people that participated in THON joined that anti-sweatshop club I honestly think they would have much more of an impact.
I hate to sound like a pessimist but I think real answer is that we simply don’t care about those slaves/sweatshop workers. Because of them, we get cheap products, and continue to live are ridiculously luxurious lifestyles. It’s way easier to find some way to justify it by saying bullshit things like “its out of our control” or “its part of God’s plan”
Lets just be honest: it is way easier and way more enjoyable to live our privileged lives in denial/ ignorance than it is to actually do something about it. We can stop these social injustices. All we have to do is want it bad enough, and right now we just don't.
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I think that he meant all gods like whatever god you believe in why would he let the world run like this to let people be slaves, what happened to the all men are created equal I don’t think this would happen if were we all created equal like were suppose to be why would god let people be treated that way. I think whatever God you believe in you could question this because you would want to know why any god would allow this to happen and I don’t think it matters what you believe in when it comes to this and I don’t think people would want their gods allowing this.
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After this class and seeing the video, I can't help but admit that it does make me question my God. If he created all of us alike and loves all of us, then why would he put certain people through such pain and agony. If he truly does exist and truly does love us then I just can't comprehend why he would make people go through such terrible things. I understand that going through tough times makes you a stronger and more mature person, but what these slaves go through is horrifying. However, I do believe that God does everything for a reason and there is a reason why these people have to go through these things.
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I think people are too hard on religious people about stuff like this. To qualify myself here, I am an atheist and have been for a long time. I do not think religion makes rational sense to me, so I stopped following it. However, that is not really what religion is about. It's about faith and believing what you are told by people you trust. If you accept that as valid it doesn't matter how bat shit insane the ideas are, you will still accept them on faith. It really isn't about being stupid or being mindless sheep or whatever some atheists like to say.
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First of all, on the issue of calling out God, I don't really think that he was calling out our God's, he was just trying to get us to think about slavery in the context of right and wrong. What he was really trying to get at is that the traditional way that most of us view God may not necessarily line up with what would be practical in theory. I agree, it is good to think about what he said. However, part of believing in an omnipotent being is believing that he may be beyond your comprehension. The physical translation we have of God doesn't really make sense given the ethereal context of it. I don't think that you really have to re-evaluate your life if you start to notice that certain circumstances in the world may not be how you originally perceived. My grandfather has told me, and I agree with him, that he believes that right and wrong are completely dependent upon your circumstances. This would line up well with what Sam says, that you could choose to believe that you will be judged against everyone in the world if you ever get to that kind of afterlife. Ethics and morality are subjective in nature and thus our interpretations may differ entirely from that of a supreme being. Many major religions have a holy text to reference when questioning what a pious life is. The human language, as we can see with our modern law system, allows for a large amount of personal opinion. Islam has scholars who are in constant debate about the exact meaning in relation to modern circumstances. The comment made in class brings up this idea of uncertainty when evaluating our moral positioning. How can we be 100% sure of anything, unless a deity would, using more than just our imperfect languages imbue us with the power to understand with a divine clarity. Luckily some of us have the blessing of worshiping a deity who cares only for our current and tangible lives thus circumventing this question entirely. Those who base their entire lives on promises in a life following this one have to weigh their choices to a different standard. The activities we do in this life, will always disappoint someone, a drastic example would be if we were to free the slaves we would disappoint the slave owners, possibly bankrupting them and resulting them in starving to death. Someone would have to weigh the deaths of some to benefit others. Some religions would state that all lives are equal, and in such a case you would have to make this kind of decision. The message is just do what you can, no one can really know whats going to happen. Just don't be a dick.
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I personally don't believe in god in a religious way, and I have even more trouble dealing with religion as a whole. In my opinion, any organized religion in the world today has become a corrupt and perverted version of what it started off as. All of the major religions share the same core values and were started off with the best of intentions. Since its beginnings, organized religion has been the cause of more cold blooded killing than just about anything else. The crusades pitted two major religions against each other in some of the bloodiest battles the region has ever seen. Today, extremists who believe that they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven are strapping bombs to their bodies and trying to kill as many "infidels" as possible. Not only that, but one could hardly look at the news of the last few months and not see stories about the Catholic church's involvement in a massive pedophile ring. The pope himself even admitted to pardoning a priest who's victims were up in the "untold numbers". Not to mention the fact that the Catholic church is one of the largest business organizations in the world, and will sell just about anything with a cross or bible verse on it. It seems that these lexicons of spiritual power are no more than false prophets out to make the most money possible, while at the same time using their extensive network of priests to molest as many children as they want without fear of the law. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to throw my faith into any group that condones that kind of behavior.
That being said, I think that everyone has the freedom to choose what they want to believe for themselves. it just seems to me that all of the available choices are bullshit nowadays. Everyone needs to find out what they truly believe in and follow that belief until their last days.
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I have to say Sam, like most other people in the world have brought up that point about Gods, but whose to say Sam or any one of them are right? I'm a Catholic and have been my entire life. I feel like you have to believe in something and I truely believe that their is a God and his son was Jesus. I think Sam just likes to shake things up and get people to think a different way but thats fine. I'm sometimes offended by what he says but it just goes from one ear out to the other. I don't care what he says, I believe in God and I believe in Jesus. The way Sam acts and talks he may think he is god. So it really doesn't bother me because its just enough opinion from someone who like everyone else in the world, doesn't know what is true.
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This is part of the reason why I do not believe there is a God. If we are all “God’s children” why is there so much injustice in the world? Why do good things happen to the most horrible people, and terrible things happen to some of the nicest? I have heard excuses like “it’s because God tests the good people more to see if they are worthy for heaven or not” but really…come on! I do not mean to put down anyone’s faith or beliefs, but I just wish there was not so much hypocrisy in what people say about God and the religions they follow.
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I’m not a religious person and I don’t judge people who are, but after watching the slavery over chocolate video and hearing one of the slaves say that “only God knows what is happening to us”, it made me think about if I were a religious person. My ignorance may come back to bite me later but I was thinking that if God created everything, our Earth and our people, then how did he (or she) lose control and allow slavery, violence, and other horrible disasters to occur to us? I couldn’t bring myself to believe that everything is happening for a reason. If you believe that then maybe you should tell these slaves that what is happening to them is suppose to happen.
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First of all what is religion, it is the one word which is hard to describe and understand. The word itself has so much power that many attempts have been made, however, and while every theory has its limitations, contributing to our understanding of this complex word. Religion marks the human encounter with the god or gods. I myself is not that religious, but religious in some part of the world is the big deal. Like in India, there have been a lot of fights in the name of the religion. The two religion “hindu” and “muslim” always fight because of the religion. Also I have noticed that, one of my friend was leaving at the viaro village, he encountered some people at his home which were coming there to change his religion. They used to come and give lecture on the god “jesus” and my friend tried to ignore but he couldn’t and he got pulled to the church with them. The question I am trying to ask or understand is that why christen religious people try to change everybody’s religion That was the thing I dislike the most, why some people are trying to change someone’s religion. Religion should be of free choice, like myself I am a Buddhist and I respect my religion. So why someone should listen to a person and pick a religion. Another point I wanted to make Is that people are divided in the world on the basis of their religion and that creates a lot of problem. Also the main cause of the war is the religion, if there would be no religion in the world, half of the war in the world would be over.
As same asked what are our god thinking, according to different religion there are different gods. But if you look at the god thinking, they all end up at the same place “path to the heaven are similar in most of the religion.” I have some friends from different religion and their beliefs are the same as the Christian but just different god. So different gods are just the way to understand the teachings of god and way to find a way after death.
So lets talk about the chocolate example, Sam was constantly trying to make us feel guilty, and most of us did, I did myself too. But I think its life. The one thing I didn’t understand or get it, is that why some people are crazy enough to record things like this instead of doing something. I wouldn’t able to record a story like this instead I would help all I could but tats the other point. In the class some students either did not eat their second piece of chocolate at all or felt somewhat guilty while doing so. So the important thing here is that, don’t divide the people on the basis of religion, god, race, or any other discrimination. That is the main problem in the world.
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Well personally I do not believe in god, God, or gods. I think that after Sam said that how can there be god with all this shit that goes on in our world such as slavery there can be no rational explanation as to there being a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god as most religions believe their god’s abilities entail. How can a god be benevolent when pain and suffering exist in the world? How can a god be all-powerful when he fails to help people who are injured? Sure people may think that god protects them from getting into an accident but why does he do that and not help the women getting raped or the genocides happing across the world. How about slavery? How can we consider this god to be benevolent, omniscient, and all-powerful when injustices occur all over the world? God simply can not exist within our definition of a god. When Sam mentioned how god can not exist. Those with religious beliefs in the class should feel ashamed that they never thought about how they can accept how god allows injustices to occur and still believe that god is benevolent. My family is catholic and they sat that when something bad happens it is a test of some kind or it will help them become a better person. I do not believe that it works that way. I think the universe is hostile of everything and there really is no reason as to why something may happen. Certain events may help people become better people but not everything will make people better people or help them develop their feelings or something like that. There is no test that god is performing on us. There is no great plan. If there was then people would not be suffering so much because god must be benevolent. If there is a god then he/she/it is not benevolent. This makes most of the modern religions not believable. Those who believe in these religions need to definitely rethink their rationalization for their beliefs or even if their beliefs are practical in a world filled with injustice and suffering. Those that hold these beliefs need to change how they think that their god works and what their god is. I hope that they can see some reason as to why the world is full of pain and suffering and their god does nothing to help. Or at least it seems like nothing is being done to me at least. A large percentage of the world’s population does not have enough food. How can there be any god that allows this to happen? Especially to children when they can practically not do much to fix their situation.
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I personally got a little bit upset about Sam’s comments about our God. It’s not that I don’t think that we need to do anything about the situation with slavery, because we do. I really do agree that the first step is awareness. But, maybe I guess it seemed like Sam is implying that all believers of God just live their lives selfishly. Whenever he was talking about all of us being at the “pearly gates” and discussing whether or not we get into heaven, and then we see what the slaves next to us… I really just did not follow what he was saying. Does he think that we would not get into heaven because of where we have lived in our lives? I have always been a firm believer that being a Christian especially means that you are leading a life that God wants you to lead, and you are doing that with the cards you are dealt. Now, I try my very hardest to live my life the best that I can, and I really do think about how there is so much injustice in the world, and I try and fight it in the best way I can. I don’t really have an answer to the question, but I thought it was strange about how Sam pulled religion into everything. I understand how he wanted to make us feel something, which I most certainly did, but whether or not we get into heaven, or whatever you believe, seems to me like it should be between you and God.
However, I also think that God would really like us to keep learning and try to keep helping one another. I think that he would be hurt if we were handed this knowledge and did not do anything about it. To me, doing your research and telling people about it really is the first step, and I am glad Sam touched on that. However, I am not exactly sure about what the second step should be. I am sure that is something we can talk about later on. However, I think that we can all agree that we are all pretty lucky to attend Penn State and get this wonderful education. One thing I have especially learned from this class that is that we should never take anything in our lives for granted. Sam’s right when he said that we can’t feel guilty for being the people that we are, but that does not mean that we should ignore what is going on in the rest of the world. To me, it is our goal to advocate for justice for the slaves, and then hopefully one day we will see some progress.
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Even though I thought that Sam was being a little aggressive in his adaptation of what happens at the the pearly gates of Heaven, I have to admit that he really did get me thinking. I've said it before– I'm not super religious, but I do believe in God and having a purpose. However, when Sam said that those slaves would also probably be in Heaven and that we'd have to "go stand next to them," I couldn't help but to think that he has a point. I mean, clearly their situation is horribly unfortunate and I am searching for ways to help, but how can God judge me fairly in comparison to one of the slaves? My life, through my perspective has had it's ups and downs… but the life of one of those slaves is definitely weighted more on the down side than up? And when you consider the fact that some of the ups in your life- like the new laptop or iPhone you got for Christmas or that gold watch you'll buy yourself after your first promotion at work- revolve around material objects that have slave-made parts in them… how is that fair to the slave that got to Heaven? To him, we as consumers of his unpaid work and beaten life should not deserve to stand next to him in Heaven. The wheels are definitely turning in my head… and after reading some of these posts from both rather religious people to the semi-believers, I'm still thinking. But I'm still left wondering- are we just saying these things like "everyone has their purpose on this Earth and He will reward them when they leave" just so we can sleep at night? Just so that we can still tell ourselves that we're still going to go to Heaven?
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Sam has the right to call out any god he wants. We live in America its his right to share his religious views with us. If someone is religious and Sam offended you well that something you need to deal with. Furthermore, people always seem to want to know what can I do, how can I change whatever the thing is that Sam is showing us that we interpret as wrong. For instance, people probably thought what can I do to help those slaves who were beaten mercifuly for attempting to escape for their slave masters. I have two ways of looking at this. I have two solutions are ways to resolve/look at these world problems we have all witnessed in SOC 119 and that we want to fix. The first method of going about these problems is we all as individuals need to only look at ourselves. We all need to focus and point the finger at ourselves and say I'm the problem and I am going to change myself. If everyone would do that then the world would be a much better place for everyone to live. But their lies the problemk, everyone will not step up and take responsibility. As humans we all feel like, yeah I know im not perfect but I dont hurt anyone, im just going about living my life. If anything I often go out of my way to help others "IM GOOD". The problem is not me its them over there. Thats what everyone thinks and believes. Its kind of like when Sam displayed the statistics about people taking polls on questions and one of the questions read something like 95 percent of people feel they do enough to save water, while 30 percent felt their neighbors does enough to preserver water. We are just inclined as humans to always point the finger at others and rarely at ourselves this is why the world is as bad and evil as it is, its not because of "those people" over there doing wrong its because of "us" all of us. Equally. My second method of looking at "how can we fix this world" is we cant. This world is evil because it just is. There is alot of injustice and even more people going through so much pain and suffering and it will always be that way. Is it because of the Devil? Is is because God allows it? I dont know. This is just how it is. People are just suffering there born suffering and they die suffering, and for the most part us living here in America dont really acknowledge these people. I kind of feel like seeing how evil and vile and ill this world is some what reassures that there is a Heaven and a Hell. Where are we going to go? I dont know? How are we being judged? I dont know? Is living a "good" life and helping others enough to go to Heaven.. I dont know but I doubt it. I feel like living average lives and helping other people doesnt make us good people it just makes us normal people and being a normal person only enables and promotes the way the world is today. We would all have to try emounsly hard and be extraordinary people caring and loving and doing all good things for others all the time, Can you do that though? Or do we just choose not to? I dont know. You tell me..
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Because I believe in my God (by the way I’m Christian) so fervently, it takes a whole lot to offend me when anyone starts talking ill about him. When Sam brought up God and what he would say to all of us, I understood what he was trying to say. I don’t think it was entirely logical more that it was emotional but I understood all the same. I cannot crucify myself for not knowing every problem in the world and if someone needs to call me ignorant I would ask them on which planet they’ve been living on because I’ve been here on Earth. I am not omnipresent, I cannot possibly know everything happening everywhere at all times just as much as Sam cannot know everything that is going on within a structured system as small as a classroom. This means we are actually people. What I do believe God does is hold you responsible for what you do know and what you did with that knowledge. If someone grows up around thieves and doesn’t know it is wrong, do we crucify him/her for something they did not know? No! There is a reason trials are either adult or juvenile because with each it is assumed there are different level of knowledge. I also do not believe that God puts people in places to suffer so you know what you are made of, that is absolute crap and anyone that says that does not know the first thing about the Christian faith. Hey, I can sit in garage but that doesn’t make me car and so sitting in church doesn’t make one a Christian. My bible says we have a responsibility to those with needs that we can meet no matter the capacity or situation, sometimes that person is poor sometimes they are like you and sometimes maybe even more well off than you. Sam’s comments have to do with Sam’s thinking and so I keep that separate from me as a person. His job as he has said time and time again is not to make you believe anything but rather just think. Whether in the process of thinking you change your mind, that is your prerogative, because sometimes your opinions might even be further rooted because you really thought about it. But no, I do not believe God would punish me for something I had no clue about, what kind of God would he be then. But if in fact I knew I could have done something and just didn’t, then I will be held accountable for that knowledge I did possess.
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To start out I want to say that I am a Christian and do believe in God and Jesus Christ. I think there are many so called “religious” individuals out there that never question faith, but I am not one. I mean why would God, who created us in his image and calls us to be his children allow slavery and suffering to take place on Earth? I have questioned this many times, and I have come to the conclusion that it is to bring us all closer together. God works in mysterious ways. Why does an earthquake hit one of the poorest countries in the world, and not the United States for instance? I believe this is God’s way of getting us to love one another. Would millions of people be willing to come together to help the poor or the wealthy? God is not here to make life easy, but to challenge us to look after one another and his planet. I find it hard to believe that if we were all wealthy, anyone would give a shit about anyone but himself or herself or our environment.
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Belief in god has nothing to do with this question. It is just wrong to think about some higher power when this stuff is going on in the world. There is no god. If you applied to a nice job in Shanghai to do logistics for a mining company, but as soon as you went there, you were put to work inside the mines without pay, who would you start praying to? Would you pray to god? Would you believe that god put you there? Would you believe that god really exists then? I know I wouldn't. I would pray for my family back home to notice that I was missing and do something about it. If they can't, then I would probably be screwed for the rest of my life. It is useless to think about what was going to happen with the stuff you were being made to mine. Say the coal you were mining was used by every government in the world to make steel to use as a part of their infrastructure, I can claim that they were buildings created from my flesh. But in the end, it doesn't matter. If I was in this situation, I would just be wishing that someone would realize that this is going on, stop by and slip a gun in my hands, so the next day, I can sneak around and destroy the people responsible for holding me against my wishes. If you put a gun in every slaves hand, there would not be slavery. All these "slave owners" would be dead, and all the products that you buy will go up in price so much that people would start complaining about the slaves getting guns.They would want these guns taken away from people so they can get to "work" again. They remove the guns from the workers so they can get back to work. This will result in the chains put back on the slaves and they would be exploited to keep the prices down. This is all basic human nature. When you go shopping, you look for the best deal. In buying the item for the best deal, you encourage manufacturers to make more items for that price. In order to do that, they have to enslave people. We as humans enable other humans to enslave us. We either need to give every person weapons or take weapons away from every body to even start a solution of ending slavery. And when it happens, you would be spending 90% of your salary on necessities rather than luxury items. Change should come from the leaders of the world, and Mr. Bales is doing a great job attempting to turn the tide in the favor of the slaves. But some corrupt governments would not want this change as they would have to pay a lot more without slave labor.
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During class, I remember how Sam was talking about how God can forgive us for supporting modern day slavery through our material consumption. I understand the point he was trying to make, but I do not necessarily agree with it. What I took from his speech was that people who practice religion may just shrug off the ending of modern day slavery by using the excuse that God will forgive them. In a way this makes people look hypocritical by saying that slavery is wrong and then going out and consuming more slave made products. Bluntly speaking, these people are not practicing what they preach. I have to disagree with Sam though when he was imitating God by sarcastically implying that although a person supports modern day slavery they can still be forgiven. First of all, as a Christian, I know I’m a hypocrite. I do not always practice what I preach or do not behave in a way that Christ would like me too. Sometimes I intentionally decide to do things even though I know they are wrong and other times I do things unintentionally that discredit what Christianity is all about. Although I fall short of God’s standards, which is perfection, and I know I have slipped up, am slipping up, and will slip up, my God is merciful and still forgives me. I do not understand this concept so I’m not sure how to explain it. How can a person mess up so badly where they deserve to die and still are loved and forgiven like they never did anything wrong in the first place? God is absolutely astounding like that. Unfortunately, Christians are our best and worst examples of Christianity. I’m not saying that people who do things against God’s will should just give up and not try to change their actions. As you get to know God more and more, you start to change your philosophies and actually want to make Him happy because you love Him. So Christians should still strive to follow God’s commandments even though in this life time we will not be able to do so perfectly. Going back to Sam’s point, isn’t it true that if a person learned about how most products are made by slaves, whether religious or not, wouldn’t they be a hypocrite too if they continued to purchase these slave made products? This is a very blunt statement, but I think we’re all hypocrites or ignorant to be honest. We hear about modern day slavery, and we either don’t care or don’t see what the problem is (making us ignorant) or we decide to make a change and become hypocrites because we will always fall short of that change no matter how hard we try. I am not saying that we should we should choose to be ignorant in this fight to end slavery. All I’m saying is, we will fall short, but I believe for people who believe Christ Jesus is Lord that they will be pardoned for their hypocrisy. As I said before, I do not completely understand this concept of unlimited forgiveness, but I’m accepting it based on faith. This concept can be easily mocked by others who do not choose to accept it by faith, but if everything were just laid out for us and explainable, there would be no point in religion. So as far as Sam calling out our gods during class, I believe he had good intentions to wake people up who are just relying on their forgiveness in their religion to not make a change. When listening to Sam, he wants you to look past just words and look into the meaning behind them. For his bold and seemingly offensive statement, I’ve now come to appreciate his teaching style more.
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I used to be a religious person who went to church every or most Sundays with my family. My mom is catholic, my dad is not religious. My dad does not ever go to church and brought up the question to me: how does God allow a drug dealer on the streets is healthy and rich while babies are dying and children are being beaten. This got me thinking. My mom of course says free will is the reason. But at what point is free will ok and a good excuse. In my home town, about a year ago, a 10th grade boy shot and killed his father, mother and 2 younger brothers, one in 8th grade and one in 6th grade. I did not know this family but I cried one night for hours thinking about how these two boys would never have prom, never experience college or maybe even a girlfriend. After this night, I stopped going to church and I stopped believing. This was the turning point in my religion. I just cannot grasp how God, who is supposed to be the protector and almighty, could let something happen to such innocent people. It just bothers me. Sometimes I catch myself wanting to pray but I feel bad about it because I feel like I am not religious enough to ask for God’s help. Sometimes I want to go back to church and start going again but since I am at college and don’t have many friends who go to church, I find it hard to make myself go. But when Sam says things about people’s Gods, I understand why people would get offended. It is not anyone’s place to make fun of someone else’s religion or religious beliefs. And I get that Sam wants us to think but the fact that he is not religious and telling religious people that their God is wrong in some ways, I can see how that would be offensive. Sometimes I even get offended or bothered by the things that he says. I have to remember that I am not really one to have the right to be offended since I am not a good religious follower. But at the same time, people are free to feel a certain way and express their feelings. I have done it in the past and I am sure I will do it in the future. I can understand why people get bothered by the things that he says. We were all brought up a certain way, and when someone challenges the way we were taught to think and our beliefs, no matter what they are, we are bound to get offended and mad.
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I am trying very hard to take in this situation and understand where Sam was coming from when he made this statement, but at the same time, I can’t help but feel angry and disappointed in him and his inability to control himself in a setting that is of educational value and not for him to rant his offensive opinion. This class was obviously made to force us as young adults, to learn, understand, and react to what is being taught to us. However I still believe that what should be given to us are facts, and not purely opinion or rants on subjects as dangerous as religion and people’s “gods”. To be honest I’m not sure why I’m actually angry with Sam for his statements because I am personally not a very religious person, but on the other hand, I do feel that it is territory that should be left out of the classroom if isn’t needed. There are plenty of people at Penn State who are very religious, who could have taken offense to what was said, and as a professor is that really what you want to do? Offend the student’s who’s minds you’re trying to enrich with knowledge? At the same time I do know that Sam has been teaching for many years and he would probably know what works and what doesn’t work in a learning environment so I am still a bit confused as to where I stand. Something else that scares me is that what Sam said actually caused people in the classroom to rethink their religion. It is very sad that a simple comment by a professor can cause a person to change their religious views, but it is also very sad that Same decided to “make us think” about something that is so sacred as our God. On the subject of Slavery, I do see what same is trying to say. I full heartedly agree that the first step towards stopping slavery around the world is clearly awareness of the situation. It did seem as if Sam was trying to imply that because I believe in God, that I’m selfish and don’t really care about the situation. The entire rant about “pearly gates” and seeing slaves in heaven just through me off completely, and to be blunt as soon as he brought up god, I got pissed and kind of tuned out his points. Was he trying to say that because I eat chocolate that was made by slaves I’m a sinner, and that I’m going to hell? I understand that he wanted us to think about the situation, and think about what we could do to help stop the situation, but insulting a person’s belief, or belittling what they follow isn’t exactly going to help the situation at all.
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I like that point that one of the previous posters made, because I thought the EXACT same thing when Sam brought it up: "it is hard to imagine being in the same place in the afterlife as a slave who worked tirelessly for no money and had no freedom."
I, personally, am not a Christian or anything, so the existence of heaven is a notion that I have yet to fully be convinced of.
It's a really good point, though. If I'm a good person living in America, with a steady, fulfilling job, a good income, and a sweet little nuclear family to be proud of, how is that at all comparable to the life of a slave on the Ivory Coast? It's extremely difficult for me to imagine that the reward for living our lives will be access to the same damn place. That doesn't even seem remotely fair.
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I've been a Catholic since I was born, and I have always thought about what I was doing. However, Sam brings up a valid point about the person across the world who God may be comparing me to. I don't know, I guess I never really thought about that, but for that matter, I have never really considered that even a remote thing. Catholicism's general rule of principle is The Golden Rule of "Do unto others…," but another major aspect of it is the whole "last will be first and first will be last." Now, this is where the debate comes in. I am between Middle Class and Upper Middle Class I would say, and I guess the whole notion of "the last will be first" as definitely come into my head. But we, as humans, cannot possibly understand or comprehend how God is judging us. If it is the case that God is judging us based on our living situation, well then a lot of us well-off Catholics here in the United States are pretty screwed, while the slaves around the world who are Catholic can rejoice because they have a foot in the door of heaven. However, that presumes that God ONLY cares about one thing: basically how much money you are worth…and if we presume God is more of the omnipotent and all-merciful God (which we all [I'm speaking in generalities of course] hope that God really is like) then sure, our situation matters, but so does our character and how we act towards people. I really do believe that God is more of the second kind: God judges you on your actions and decisions in life and how you acted towards your fellow humans.
Now here is the part in the argument where people can jump in and say, "Well you acted terrible to other humans because you bought slave-made goods and things that people possibly died for." Yeah, sure you can say that, but I think if you become aware of the situation and try to do anything you can, whether it is learn more about it and try and buy stuff from fair trade organizations or give money to organizations who help fight slavery or any other things, then that is doing your part. You may not have ended slavery, or really have had a huge impact, but at least you did what you were capable of doing.
God, I want to think, grants us certain talents and abilities that we are to share with those around us. Most of us, if not pretty much all of us, are not going to do anything crazy in life, like cure cancer or win the Nobel peace prize or anything like that. But we CAN all be good people to those around us including family friends and even strangers, do our part to help make the world better by volunteering time or money to philanthropic organizations, and living life the best we can using the gifts that God has given us.
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I find the responses to this question to be very interesting but also predictable. Every time religion is brought up it seems some people automatically get offended and then others bring a variety of “I think” and interpretations to back what they believe. I love to read through the posts and see the different trends that always evolve. In my eyes it is just a never ending cycle of speculation that does not really answer the question of how someone thinks about the issue and how it ties into their religion. But in the end does it really need to. Why is it that I can’t just be a Christian and believe that there is a heaven and a God and that’s it? That’s how I feel anyway, why do I need to justify what I believe whatever it maybe, does someone know something I don’t?
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You could ask why do people still have pre-marital sex? Why are there homosexuals who believe in religion? Why do people still steal and don’t obey thy mother and father? It is about interpretation and beliefs. Do you believe that the golden gates are there for anyone that believes and are devoted to the idea of God? Do you believe that all your sins are forgiven when you die? Many of the religious teachings are about personal beliefs and growth within the religion. Most do not emphasis the impact of third world country policies on their citizens or the actions of others hidden in bureaucracies.
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I think that it is very easy to believe that God is a good God and that he has done everything for a reason when you live the life of someone in America. But looking at the lives of people all over the world living in slavery I can’t imagine why they would every deserve that life. I am not the most religious person, but I do believe in God. I also believe that man can do things that go against God, and that is slavery. I don’t think that God interferes too much with our lives, and that the slave owners are bad people, and the slaves are very unlucky.
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I think that people can go along without questioning their God is because of faith. I am Christian and I have believed in God my entire life. I know some people will say how can’t you question that there is a God when all of these horrible things are happening. But I think that those people will have something better waiting for them in the afterlife. I think that everything happens for a reason, and we may not always understand what that reason is but eventually it will make sense. It is called your faith for that reason, it can’t be backed by hardcore facts, but something inside of you just tells you that this is right, and this is what you believe in.
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